Is there a problem with Islam?

[LeafBud7]

My answer to this has always been, no, even if there are problematic elements within Islam especially for women, you can say the same about any culture or ideology, or religion.
I have been reading and thinking more about this recently, and i'm going round in circles. My brother in law is Muslim, and I am going to ask him what he thinks when I next get the chance for a proper chat, also a female colleague who I think would be open to talking about this..
In the meantime, what do you think? Is it as I have always thought, above, or is there something potentially within the religion what makes it more problematic, or is it not the religion itself, but more how things evolve in some communities? Is it all just a imaginary "problem" used by racists to whip up a storm?
One thing is for sure, it seems one is not really allowed to ask these questions in some circles, without being accused of being racist, which I find really unhelpful.

@username101010 I feel I should push back a little more on what you're saying about Islamic countries. Surely these issues would be universal in all Muslim countries today and through history if this was the ultimate true representation of Islam?

I've never claimed to be the thread police and I've also not policed it. Luckily, I'm allowed my opinion and I'm also allowed to voice it.

The OP was badly worded, it barely even mentioned women. It came across as being just another thread about general Islam bashing and not about misogyny within it. And with regards to misogyny within Islam, I don't think it's worse than misogyny in other religions.

What is it about the culture then? How, specifically, were these misogynistic aspects of the culture formed, and why do they continue to persist?

Again, this circular argument that it's not Islam. Which Islamic country at what point in history had equality for women?

As far as I'm aware, and from what I've read, passages of the Qur'an and other texts, have been used to oppress women.

These men dehumanising women justify their behaviour as religious and they quote the Qur'an and other texts. They are scholars; people versed in the texts. If they are making stuff up, pulling it out of thin air, why is no one challenging them?

The OP was badly worded, it barely even mentioned women. It came across as being just another thread about general Islam bashing and not about misogyny within it.

Since it was posted on the Feminism board, it’s reasonable to assume the focus is on Islamic teachings and practices in relation to feminist issues, particularly regarding women’s rights. That has been the central theme of the discussion so far.

And with regards to misogyny within Islam, I don't think it's worse than misogyny in other religions.

If we’re aiming for a deeper understanding of Islam and its impact on women, introducing comparisons with other religions doesn’t move the conversation forward. How can we focus more productively on the specific issues within Islam instead of resorting to whataboutism?

I don't know, but are you somehow under the impression that misogyny didn't exist before Islam? It pre-dates Islam by quite a bit. It pre-dates all Abrahamic religions.

Are you suggesting I believe Islam created misogyny across the world? Of course not, that would be an absurd idea. That’s also not the point of the discussion. The question is about how misogyny manifests within Islam today. If you don’t have an answer, that’s perfectly fine, but responses like this don’t really help move the conversation forward.

You were plainly telling people how to conduct a discussion. Take a look at your post.

There's certainly an argument to be made, and it has been, that all religions (apart from Wicca and modern Druidry) have a problem with women.

The thread is in the Feminism forum, what do you think the theme is? The Taliban has recently announced that women can't speak in public and they're saying it's based on the Qur'an.

Other Islamic countries treat women badly to some degree, I don't know of any Islamic country that give full and equal rights to women. No Islamic government has come forward and criticised the Taliban nor made any gesture towards rescuing the women.

I've seen no statements from 'community leaders' decrying what's going on. In my opinion, that's because to criticise it would be seen as criticising Islam which isn't acceptable.

I think some fair whataboutism is essential in a thread like this - and for cultural & political change going forward. The emphasis that there's been on child brides for instance, is absurd when currently girls as young as 10 and many thousands under 16 are legally married in US rural Christian communities.

@Surf2Live

In Britain and Europe where Muslim communities are already using Sharia law or calling for it IMO this should be very strongly pushed back against by governments, police and judiciary. There is no place for a parallel legal system that disadvantages women so much. That is a direct contradiction to our democracy and very dangerous to the rights our grandmothers and great grandmothers called for.

I agree with this but the fact is that most liberal feminists in the West don’t have the courage to speak up for fear of being called racist. Just look at how Ayaan Hirshi Ali, someone which both the lived experience and the knowledge of the subject, was treated.

This 💯

I think history has been distorted to make us believe we’re evil, part of a wider exercise by the hostile foreign powers to bring the West down from within. It’s been going on for decades but accelerated in the last decade.

In my Eastern European country, the slave raids by the Ottoman Empire were so common and large, we still have a special word to describe a woman taken into captivity as a sex slave. We have paintings depicting these raids (from my experience, they have become suppressed in search results though!). So many were taken that it’s estimated that around 4% of the inhabitants of the Arab Peninsula still have Slavic DNA today. And we’re talking many centuries ago.

I don’t want reparations but I think we should stop bashing the West because the reality is that the West is the only place today where there is no sanctioned slavery and women’s rights are respected in law and in the society. Women will not be safe in a post-Western world.

If the Amish or Hasidic Jews, or Mormons or whomever, want to live in medieval conditions, it is not a threat to the world and women’s rights as a whole, because those communities are insular.

Islam, on the other hand, is rapidly expanding, socially regressing on the whole, in terms of women’s rights, etc, and seeks to make the world Muslim, today. There are many Islamic extremists at work as we speak, plotting to make this real.

This is not comparable with other religions in these present times.

My comment was in response to whataboutism.

The emphasis that there's been on child brides for instance, is absurd when currently girls as young as 10 and many thousands under 16 are legally married in US rural Christian communities.

How is child brides irrelevant when Muhammad had a child bride and it's seen by many Muslims as permissable? Iraq want to lower the age of marriage to 9 because they are emulating Muhammad.

Child marriage is a human rights violation yet justified in a religion. America has child marriage which is a disgrace, but it's not condoned in Christianity.

I pointed out in the thread that abuses common in Islam such as child marriage, FGM and so called honour based abuse are prevelent in other cultures. It's also been pointed out that other religions have a problem with women.

Is it Islam or is it misogyny? Can you actually separate the culture, the religion and the misogyny. Is Islam and the hold it has due to misogyny and the culture? Is the culture due to the hold Islam has? Man created religion, man writes the religious texts. Can't think why in such an inhospitable terrain that mans control would be so complete. To me Islam is a tool used to control women.

If you can't tell I don't believe in religion as such, all religions are flawed and are created and used by men for control.

💯

I was born in what used to be the Eastern Block and people were compelled to march in support of the Islamic revolution to overthrow the ‘imperialist West’ in Iran, we had placards of their religious leaders plastered around the country and the USSR actively supported the regime, despite at the same time persecuting religion and state-mandating atheism ‘at home’.

The war on the West and Western values continues, now it’s about to bring it down from within.

Also, Islam is a Philistine religion (interestingly the etymology of Palestine is from Philistine). There are children in British Schools, today, who are not allowed to listen to or study music and are also passing out with dehydration during Ramadan. It’s regressive.

It's obviously condoned in the US Christian communities that allow it. Justified by the Bible, sanctioned by Christian judges and implicitly condoned by the predominantly christian country as a whole.

Odd then, that when it is condemned - it's never as a bad part of Christianity?

This is really interesting. It explains why the left, instead of thinking of Islam as ‘the opium of the masses’ is now actively promoting and defending this religion.

If you read this thread in full, you will see that misogynistic passages of the Bible have in fact been called out. When these passages are used as justification to oppress others, then of course it is a harmful use of Christianity and should be challenged as such.

There absolutely no justification whatsoever for child marriage in the bible. It's not 'Christian' in anyway shape or form. Anyone who uses Christianity to condone it is wrong.

I don't believe Christians quote the bible or Jesus, to excuse child marriage. I believe it's used when a child is pregnant or to prevent underage sex. It's also prevelent across all religions in the States, not just Christians.

I'm not religious and have no skin in the game. I believe all religions have a problem with women.

There was an article written in the 1970s about the ‘revolutionary potential’ of these movements in the Middle East and how it could be utilised to overthrow Western capitalism. I can’t find a link now but found this which is along similar lines: https://www.marxists.org/archive/harman/1994/xx/islamism.html

What they don’t understand is that immediately after the religious fundamentalists came to power in Iran, they executed all the leftie academics supporting them. And this is a pattern not a one-off.

Silly 'lefties'.

Thank you for this.

Christianity has developed and become more liberal. Partly because the teaching is available in all languages and importantly modern versions of the language.
Islam can only be studied in the archaic Arabic it was first written in. The Bible is known as a book about God and about the teaching of prophets and Jesus it is written by humans.
The Koran is accepted as the word of God merely transcribed by a human.