Is there a problem with Islam?

[LeafBud7]

My answer to this has always been, no, even if there are problematic elements within Islam especially for women, you can say the same about any culture or ideology, or religion.
I have been reading and thinking more about this recently, and i'm going round in circles. My brother in law is Muslim, and I am going to ask him what he thinks when I next get the chance for a proper chat, also a female colleague who I think would be open to talking about this..
In the meantime, what do you think? Is it as I have always thought, above, or is there something potentially within the religion what makes it more problematic, or is it not the religion itself, but more how things evolve in some communities? Is it all just a imaginary "problem" used by racists to whip up a storm?
One thing is for sure, it seems one is not really allowed to ask these questions in some circles, without being accused of being racist, which I find really unhelpful.

I think we’re just going round in circles here. If any criticism of a religion is seen as tearing it apart, then a discussion is simply not possible.

Same would apply to a Christian refusing to accept any criticism of questionable passages in the Bible.

It’s not just about some people wholeheartedly and unquestionably accepting some scriptures as the absolute truth, it’s also about how these beliefs affect the people around them. As @MilkToast said in their post, “When these passages are used as justification to oppress others, then of course it is a harmful use of Christianity and should be challenged as such.”
That should apply to all religions.

I don’t think any religion or culture should be above criticism.

And as for googling, we can all just go and google things, that’s not what a discussion forum is about though.

You do understand that there are people who are on the left that aren't full-on Marxists, right?

Goodness, has anyone noticed this thread in site stuff. https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/site_stuff/5165155-why-is-this-islamophobic-thread-being-allowed-to-stand seems like there are lots of people who believe Islam is above criticism.

I have read the thread in full which is why I'm calling out a double standard that is seemingly so ingrained with many people that it isn't even being noticed.

Calling out "misogynistic passages from the Bible" and saying they're exploitation "should be challenged" is pretty feeble compared with what would be an equivalent to the general tone of this thread - which would be condemning Christianity as a whole for the child marriages in US Christian communities.

Especially given that of age of consent laws in some Muslim Arabic, African and Asian countries are higher than in some Christian European, North & South American countries.

To clarify, are you wanting to initiate a discussion on Christianity’s effect on the oppression/suppression of women’s rights in comparison to that of Islam’s?

There’s a problem with religion, full stop.

I don’t think there’s a problem with religion.

It’s natural for us as a conscious, gregarious species, to want to respectfully ritualise rites of passage, and to explain our inner world and sense of ‘connection’. With the decline of religion, people are turning to new age and self help.

Its easy to try to gloss over the issues specific to Islam and Islamic regimes, by stating ‘it’s just a religion and all religions are bad’, but we really need a bit more intellectual and moral courage than that, when we are seeing women and girls rights being eroded in the world, in the name of this particular one.

To add to Wicca and modern Druidry as two religions without misogynistic elements, I believe Shintoism does not have any in its core beliefs, however misogynistic cultural attitudes are pervasive and have influenced various elements in practice. In this way it is clear how culture has influenced religious practices, by adding in misogyny where it was never expressly stated in the actual core beliefs.

The CIA must have taken note. What actually happened was the USA promoted and supported Islamic fundamentalists as a way to destabilise and topple left-cleaning democracies in the Middle East that may have become equally friendly with the USSR.

What do you mean by "Iraq"?

It's the equivalent of a private members bill that women's and human rights groups have been actively campaigning against - with numerous protests in every city. It's very unlikely to get through (Although it would bring Iraq in line with the USA on legal child marriages). Still though, it would be much more effective to support the Muslim women opposing it than rail against Islam in general.

Iraq, btw, has had 18 as the legal age of consent since 1959.

Trump please give it a break. You are brainwashed.

Iraq is a country bordering Turkey amongst others. It's in the ME and NA region. You can find other details on Google.

Child marriage has been a problem in Iraq for years because children as young as 15 can marry with parental consent.

Unregistered religious marriages are a long used loophole for children to marry. They also have the traditional practice of fasliya which is an exchange of family members to settle tribal disputes.

There is currently a proposed amendment to the Personal Status Law which could allow girls as young as nine to marry.

Obviously I was challenging your claim that "Iraq" wanted to change the law, as if it's a big majority of the people or the current ruling government. It's not, it is one man with some support from fundamentalist groups - and it has a lot of active opposition.

As it is, several US states have no lower limit for child marriages and girls as young as 10 and thousands of under 15s have been married in recent years - but you don't seem concerned about that.

And, btw, the age of consent in many Christian European, North and South American countries is 15; in quite a few it's 14. But you don't seem bothered about that either.

Bait and switch. I point out that Islam accepts child marriage because of Muhammad and you say look over there! They do it too!!

I've already said (a few times) in the thread that problems often associated with Islam such as FGM, child marriage and so called honour based abuse happen in other cultures. India for example, has a massive problem with child marriage and so called honour based abuse.

If these issues which are human rights violations, aren't discussed, then they'll never change.

The other thread on site stuff has become a whole debate and a half in itself but seeing as one of the very valid points made was the lack of Muslim voices themselves on this thread, then I will copy a post made on that thread that links to an article by a Muslim woman in Egypt foreignpolicy.com/2012/04/23/why-do-they-hate-us/

Why do you use air quote marks for Iraq?

You really can't bring yourself to say, in terms of child marriages, "The USA for example"? It has to be a country with a foreign religion.

On Iraq, I think you should question your source - as you've only been given a small outrage-mongering part of the story. Or maybe you got the whole thing and spun it up yourself.

No one on here is saying that Islam has a monopoly on misogyny. However it’s my belief that it enshrines discrimination against women. It states explicitly that God made man superior to women. It dictates that women inherit 1/4 of what men inherit and that one man’s witness in court is worth that of 4 women. It advises the beating of disobedient wives.A man can have up to 4 wives in the vast majority of Muslim countries. These are facts, not
made up accusations. Because many Muslims see the Quran as the revealed word of God these beliefs and practices have endured and are always susceptible to be used as law whenever an Islamic country experiences an upsurge in religiosity. It is not acceptable nor wise to say this in polite public spaces not least because accusations of racism can result in life changing consequences eg loss of employment. This forum offers a space for these facts to be aired by those who see the facts and don’t turn away from them. If it is deleted it’s one more nail in the coffin of free speech.

I see. Giving an example of a country that has some of the highest child marriage in the world, as well as an appalling level of so called honour based abuse, is racist. Seems like you're trying to close down discussion by accusing people of racism.

You're minimising what's happening in Iraq for some reason. The new proposal passed its first reading in the Iraqi parliament. The aim is to give religious authorities the power to decide on family affairs, including marriage, divorce and the care of children.

Opponents of the law were accused of “moral decadence” and “following western agendas”.

https://www.weforum.org/publications/global-gender-gap-report-2024/ I was really intrigued by this global report as Iceland performs best at no.1 ,with Finland ,Norway, Sweden all in the top five,followed by Germany at no.7. Seeing as all the Nordic countries have a very relaxed attitude to nudity ,do you think this perhaps correlates with their high levels of gender equality? If men are brought up to look past women’s physical attributes ( or at least not get hung up on them ) do you think this allows them to see women in a different light? I am intrigued as to why modesty is such a core concept in Islam….does this perhaps undermine women’s rights as it highlights women’s capacity to provoke desire in men and that men and women then need to take measures to avoid this…which means that men perhaps struggle to see women as more than sexual beings and creates a sense of ownership by men over the women in their lives.

Talking about Islam as one thing is a waste of time. It was born from a clear split between Sunni and Shia. There are many strands and differing interpretations and approaches to jurisprudence which have developed over centuries.

The problem with Islam is the growth of extreme fundamentalism. This is a threat to human rights from Pakistan to Europe. Any attempt to make Islamophobia a hate crime is a fundamental betrayal of the basic principles of the West.

I am hoping the situation in Afghanistan will make the Labour government think twice.

www.secularism.org.uk/news/2024/08/religion-phobia-definitions-must-be-avoided-nss-warns-government

Really important to be able to talk about this.

This short YouTube video explains the rights of Women in Islam albeit not in great detail but enough to give an idea that women are made equal to men and afforded multiple rights.

If you are genuinely interested in the our rights, do give the video a watch.

anotherlevel · Today 23:12
**
This short YouTube video explains the rights of Women in Islam albeit not in great detail but enough to give an idea that women are made equal to men and afforded multiple rights.
**
If you are genuinely interested in the our rights, do give the video a watch”

Doesnt seem to be the case in Afghanistan. Or are women there not telling the truth?

Which Islamic countries do you think best meet the video?