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Feminism: chat

Amber Heard&Johnny Depp post verdict

587 replies

Miscfeminista · 05/06/2022 22:58

Continuation of previous thread:

www.mumsnet.com/talk/feminism/4560089-amber-heardjohnny-depp-verdict?page=1

and the one before(during trial):

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4552076-amber-heardjohnny-depp-trial?page=36&reply=117586863

Also, refresher on DV:

www.womensaid.org.uk/information-support/what-is-domestic-abuse/recognising-domestic-abuse/

OP posts:
carolineshaw · 09/06/2022 13:50

Miscfeminista · Today 13:16

The reason why thread fell apart is because couple of you managed to get annoying enough and completely miss the point of threads.

Annoying to you certainly. I don’t think the thread has fallen apart.

They were never about Amber vs Johnny, it was about following trial and results of it through feminist lens.

Hard to judge the legal fight between Amber and Johnny without talking about Amber and Johnny no matter what ‘lens’ you use.

If you understood feminism like those few posters you made go away with your pathetic bullying you would know THERE IS NO DEBATE ON WHO’S THE VICTIM.

Comical how you get to complain about bullying when you are the biggest bully on here and the whole thread is a debate on who the real victim is with the jury deciding (rightly or wrongly) that it was Johnny. Those posters who have gone away have done so in a huff because they couldn’t argue their case effectively.

Next to plenty of threads about how horrible Amber is some had the need to pretend they’re smart and that they can tell all of us idiots on here what’s really going on

At least you don’t claim to be smart

despite all you did was repeating bad arguments that end up nowhere or ignored arguing about irrefutable(and then got offended for being called out for trolling).

What arguments? I haven’t seen one from you. You just spout ideology.

Again there was no debate here, no one asked you to”prove feminism isn’t real”or to lecture what you think feminism is by pulling stuff out of your ass.

So, you are the true arbiter as to what is and isn’t feminism? That notion certainly seems to be pulled from ‘out of your ass’.

It’s amazingly offensive to all the feminists who had plenty of time to think though everything years ago(some before you were born or at least before you ever heard of it)instead of getting stuck at point 1.

Age is no guarantee of wisdom as you so amply demonstrate. And you seem little troubled about being offensive to others.

Some here just need to grow up(or at least like others, make your own post). I’m over it

I would look in the mirror when you say that.

IrisVersicolor · 09/06/2022 13:59

@carolineshaw

That doesn’t actually mean the police were wrong. It could be prejudice blinding them to the truth or it could reflect reality in that certain groups are more likely to make false accusations.

Didn’t say it did. If you’d read the study there are various factors relating to that age group. Rapes are highest in the under 30 age group anyway.

Again, we are just evaluating which reports we believe and which we don’t based on no real knowledge of the truth about the allegations.

Who’s “we”? The authors of the study evaluated reports and cross-referenced them with other research. I have evaluated their study. You haven’t read any of it, so you’re not actually evaluating anything, simply airing notions.

We are still just in the business of making calculated guesses about the reliability of the police’s judgement about who is and isn’t making false accusations.

We still have no real idea how many false accusations there are, how many convictions are sound and how many acquittals allow a rapist to walk free and how many cases don't go anywhere for lack of evidence about a crime which really did take place.

As your approach is to not engage with any of the data or the work on the subject, then yes we can agree you have no real idea.

I’m not saying it’s possible to know for certain, (true of any crime), but engaging with someone who has failed to do the most basic due diligence is a waste of my time.

Onthedunes · 09/06/2022 14:01

Looking at both sides of the argument I can fully understand how some people have come to the conclusion Amber was the imperfect victim. We know how abuse works and how the perpatraitor can 'appear' to look innocent. The men that abuse, control and then wonder why women react and plead for better treatment of them.

It's a form of covert narcisim and many men are guilty of this, public persona great, on paper they do all the right things but inside the home it's control central.

If you turn that on it's head, that Amber has taken the full advantage of being a woman in this scenario and understand that this case must be viewed not as some statistic but an isolated case with no pre conceptions.

There are a number of indicators, to me (and I know I'm not a professional) just an armchair diagnosis which everyone on here hates then I would clasify Amber as having very strong narcisistic traits. Tiddy pointed out the humour earlier.

It's very true, many victims use humour to cope with 'unbelievable' trauma, Johnny cannot 'believe' the situation he has been through and Amber true to form has no understanding of humour, narcs don't. Their humour consists of finding humour in another person's pain and I could see the smirking she did when Johnny was describing being humiliated or being hurt, she enjoyed it.

Remember narcs hate weakness and they think others do too, she would not understand why others would find this distasteful, she's laughing because it's the truth that he was weak and she was stronger.

Thats how it goes, the story, Amber was weak then emerged triumphant and strong, but she never was weak, it's a story concocted to help her real self, the winner, the strong Amber, she believes she is better and stronger than others, everybody. For all Johnny's power I see him as quite insecure, much of it bravado, hiding behind drink and drugs, he is nowhere near as strong as Amber, in nature.

I can tell with Johnny's humour, he was laughing at the absurdity of some of the witnesses and professional testimonies, he understands irony and sarcasm, Amber is one dimesional and it's nothing to do with age or sex.

I was listening to the recent audio of the San Francisco tape, where Amber initially berates him about the ammount of coke he has just bought. At one point she's shouting the word 'hypocrite',
God that threw me back. Just repeating the exact same word over and over again, getting louder and louder, shutting down any flow of dialougue, it's impossible to converse with a narc and keep it civil.

TiddyTidTwo · 09/06/2022 15:10

Nailed it @Onthedunes

I'm just listening to a Beverly Hill Bar Association debate, post trial breakdown. Fascinating.

Onthedunes · 09/06/2022 15:26

I can tell you what their thought processes are at the moment.

Amber will be thinking how dare they see through me.

Johnny will be thinking how the fuck he was believed as the previous evidence was so damming at the uk trial. He thinks he's the only one whose gone through a mindfuck like that, he's understanding it's happened to others.

He needs to get himself on here because in real life narcs exist but you don't necessarily have to get too close but when in a relationship or being brought up by one can be truly terifying.

It can be the stuff of nightmares, especially when they adopt the grand illusion to get what they want.

Miscfeminista · 09/06/2022 15:42

carolineshaw · 09/06/2022 13:50

Miscfeminista · Today 13:16

The reason why thread fell apart is because couple of you managed to get annoying enough and completely miss the point of threads.

Annoying to you certainly. I don’t think the thread has fallen apart.

They were never about Amber vs Johnny, it was about following trial and results of it through feminist lens.

Hard to judge the legal fight between Amber and Johnny without talking about Amber and Johnny no matter what ‘lens’ you use.

If you understood feminism like those few posters you made go away with your pathetic bullying you would know THERE IS NO DEBATE ON WHO’S THE VICTIM.

Comical how you get to complain about bullying when you are the biggest bully on here and the whole thread is a debate on who the real victim is with the jury deciding (rightly or wrongly) that it was Johnny. Those posters who have gone away have done so in a huff because they couldn’t argue their case effectively.

Next to plenty of threads about how horrible Amber is some had the need to pretend they’re smart and that they can tell all of us idiots on here what’s really going on

At least you don’t claim to be smart

despite all you did was repeating bad arguments that end up nowhere or ignored arguing about irrefutable(and then got offended for being called out for trolling).

What arguments? I haven’t seen one from you. You just spout ideology.

Again there was no debate here, no one asked you to”prove feminism isn’t real”or to lecture what you think feminism is by pulling stuff out of your ass.

So, you are the true arbiter as to what is and isn’t feminism? That notion certainly seems to be pulled from ‘out of your ass’.

It’s amazingly offensive to all the feminists who had plenty of time to think though everything years ago(some before you were born or at least before you ever heard of it)instead of getting stuck at point 1.

Age is no guarantee of wisdom as you so amply demonstrate. And you seem little troubled about being offensive to others.

Some here just need to grow up(or at least like others, make your own post). I’m over it

I would look in the mirror when you say that.

"Those posters who have gone away have done so in a huff because they couldn’t argue their case effectively."

They left because you either can't or refuse to read and reached point where they have no more patience left to argue with folk who are intentionally derailing discussion with something that wasn't even the topic

"What arguments? I haven’t seen one from you. You just spout ideology."

Oh Leopolds...I mean@carolineshaw , we go way back don't we? You had chance to read plenty of reasonable arguments(mainly from posters who left now)on previous threads. I don't need to write same points if someone else elaborated perfectly. I didn't cite research but I made my arguments on basis of those same ones which were qouted by other posters, most which you mocked and not counter argued in any way that was reply-able.

And again-since I actually started couple of these threads, I think I know why I made them and what I wanted them to be or not, it was certainly not to keep convincing anti feminists on what feminism is

"So, you are the true arbiter as to what is and isn’t feminism? That notion certainly seems to be pulled from ‘out of your ass’.

Age is no guarantee of wisdom as you so amply demonstrate. And you seem little troubled about being offensive to others."

I agree, I am not in the second part of my life or close to it yet I apprecciate the kind of experience of 2nd wave feminists and others who been through all these already to make a bit more nuanced conclusions than I could without context of where it all started.

I think I was offensive pretty much only to trolls like you but I haven't even went as far as you did, I think the worst I ever said to someone on mumsnet was that they sound"snotty and snobbish"after they tried to"elegantly"call me stupid for making my point that they clearly did not like. You have been really going out of your way just to put someone down. If your behaviour is not definition of bully then not sure what is. Enjoy the ghost thread with your bully-ish friends

OP posts:
TiddyTidTwo · 09/06/2022 15:55

I think Camille definitely dealt with AH narcissistic traits in an effective manner on the stand. I often wondered if she's had someone in her life like this too.

JD, who was criticised for not looking at her was doing exactly what he needed to do. Grey Rock. I understood why.

I was expecting AH to explode at some point as she was not in control of the narrative, but she held it together in the courtroom. Once she got out the door, well, I dread to think.

carolineshaw · 09/06/2022 16:31

Miscfeminista · Today 15:42

They left because you either can't or refuse to read and reached point where they have no more patience left to argue with folk who are intentionally derailing discussion with something that wasn't even the topic

They left just because of me? How flattering. I’m not sure that’s true though. At least one has left after getting frustrated with another poster.

Oh Leopolds...I mean@carolineshaw , we go way back don't we?

No, not really. You still hearing those voices again?

You had chance to read plenty of reasonable arguments(mainly from posters who left now)on previous threads

I’m glad you don’t claim to have made reasonable arguments. Even you know you can’t claim that.

I don't need to write same points if someone else elaborated perfectly. I didn't cite research but I made my arguments on basis of those same ones which were qouted by other posters, most which you mocked and not counter argued in any way that was reply-able.

Translation, you can’t think of a reply.

And again-since I actually started couple of these threads, I think I know why I made them and what I wanted them to be or not, it was certainly not to keep convincing anti feminists on what feminism is

As far as I’m aware you aren’t in charge of feminism and don’t personally get to decide who is and who isn’t a feminist.

I think I was offensive pretty much only to trolls like you

Your trick is to declare someone a troll which makes them beyond the pale and then you can bully them with a clear conscience.

You have been really going out of your way just to put someone down.

When did I do that? I haven’t called you any names. I’ve just commented on your unreasonable, unpleasant, aggressive behaviour and cry bullying.

If your behaviour is not definition of bully then not sure what is.

Your behaviour

Enjoy the ghost thread with your bully-ish friends

Thank you. I will.

Onthedunes · 09/06/2022 16:47

Respectfully @Miscfeminista I think we are arguing over different things.

I fully respect your ideals and your views, I agree with so many of your points about the patriarchy and it being a man's world.

It's going to take some changing, you are our modern day sufragettes and we need women to fight for other women, but the emacipation of women does not have to come by totally blanket believing women cannot create harm.

They do and even worse they create males that can be even worse than themselves. We can only go on how people present in this world and my only input into this is for you and others to understand that narcissism is very real and does not belong to any particular sex.

Narcs thrive on creating paranoia in their victims, for Amber there was no greater paranoia for Johnny, the whole world was against him, she crushed him.

If only he could have shut the fuck up and accepted the new narrative and title of himself, wife beater and sexual abuser.

Life would have been so much easier than all this arguing.

carolineshaw · 09/06/2022 17:02

IrisVersicolor · Today 13:59

I’m not saying it’s possible to know for certain, (true of any crime), but engaging with someone who has failed to do the most basic due diligence is a waste of my time.

You do realise you just undermined your entire argument and made my point for me, don't you?

We can rarely know for certain if any allegation is true. All your studies will be doing is measuring probabilities.

For crimes such as rape, where the majority happen without witnesses and deal with the issue of consent those probabilities are incredibly hard to judge, no matter what methodology you are using. No-one except the alleged rapist and the one allegedly raped were there. Add sufficient alcohol and the resulting poor memory into the mix and even those two might be uncertain.

TiddyTidTwo · 09/06/2022 17:06

I think the difference with this case is a narcissist was exposed in all their ugly glory. She used the fact she was a woman and he had the power but most people didn't believe her when her true self was exposed.

I think this has been positive for narcissist victims. Honing down to that demographic I bet it's more 50/50 perp/victim.

I also think narcissists are more common than we think and this case has highlighted to many what people actually have to endure living with this.

I have seen no evidence online of women being blamed. I see mutual support and acknowledgment that MeToo is for victims. All victims.

It gets nasty when some feminists, especially with far reach online absolutely insist that AH was the victim and they pile in, denying any survivors of their own thoughts on the case. Those and their supporters are the ones that are pushing back on womens rights.

TiddyTidTwo · 09/06/2022 17:13

What makes it more annoying is most switch their comments off, so they post well, lies, basically with no right to reply (they don't escape the Quote Retweet however).

By denying everyone else their thoughts and experience, awful gaslighting and insults, all I can see is lots of women just turning their backs on them. I just don't get what they're trying to achieve?

I've exchanged virtual hugs online with both women and men. Heard som truly awful experiences that we met with so much support. I feel this is an opportunity to be seized upon.

IrisVersicolor · 09/06/2022 17:36

@carolineshaw

If you think the approximate nature of crime stats undermines the previous discussion, then you haven’t understood the subject at all. That is taken as read, it’s true of all crime stats including murder.

And that’s assuming that your painfully pedestrian contributions are genuinely uninformed and not simply disingenuous and disruptive.

Either way this level of debate is this is not worth any more of my time.

carolineshaw · 10/06/2022 00:21

IrisVersicolor · Yesterday 17:36

If you think the approximate nature of crime stats undermines the previous discussion, then you haven’t understood the subject at all.

Well we can't all have your profound insights.

That is taken as read, it’s true of all crime stats including murder.

I think we have been down this path before.

And that’s assuming that your painfully pedestrian contributions are genuinely uninformed and not simply disingenuous and disruptive.

Yes, always the suspicion with people like you, that someone is either unbelievably ignorant or, more likely, trolling when they dare to disagree with you, an official representative of the absolute truth.

Either way this level of debate is this is not worth any more of my time.

My, how pompous we are.

Onthedunes · 10/06/2022 14:15

The whole reason for these posts and the trial was for there to be a debate how one liners of unsubstanciated comments can effectively shut down conversation and resaonable views.

Attacking and personal insults are beneath us ladies.

Aspiringmatriarch · 11/06/2022 10:19

When someone continually makes post after post without waiting for a reply, dismisses any evidence that contradicts them or shows a pattern of violence and basically rants over and over and over again about one individual, because they're an abuse survivor so they know better than anyone else - what kind of debate is that? At a certain point it becomes impossible to engage when a poster keeps using this thread to demand validation and gets increasingly upset if everyone doesn't agree. This is not a therapy session.

It drags down the entire conversation making a sensible discussion all but impossible, and from my observations is indicative that there's something else going on.

I'm not bitter, I'm not dragging down women or men. I do think Johnny Depp is one of the most grossly misogynistic people who could ever be given a public platform though. It's very worrying.

carolineshaw · 11/06/2022 12:07

Aspiringmatriarch · Today 10:19

dismisses any evidence that contradicts them

That is fairly common here on both sides

or shows a pattern of violence and basically rants over and over and over again

Violence? Seriously? You really are calling a few posts on Mumsnet violence?

It drags down the entire conversation making a sensible discussion all but impossible, and from my observations is indicative that there's something else going on.

Yes, drink apparently. I wouldn't preach and posture too much if you go around accusing people you don't like of being drunk.

I'm not bitter, I'm not dragging down women or men. I do think Johnny Depp is one of the most grossly misogynistic people who could ever be given a public platform though. It's very worrying.

And some of us think Amber Heard is a lying, manipulative, violent scumbag who posed as a victim and acted as an ambassador for domestic violence victims when she was an abuser herself, hitting her ex-husband, sister, ex-girlfriend as well as spitting in the face of her ex-assistant.

What worries us is the blind support she receives in some quarters, regardless of the verdict and a mountain of evidence (to use her own words) to show exactly how much of a lying, manipulative, violent scumbag she is.

Robin233 · 11/06/2022 12:27

@carolineshaw

And some of us think Amber Heard is a lying, manipulative, violent scumbag who posed as a victim and acted as an ambassador for domestic violence victims when she was an abuser herself, hitting her ex-husband, sister, ex-girlfriend as well as spitting in the face of her ex-assistant.

What worries us is the blind support she receives in some quarters, regardless of the verdict and a mountain of evidence (to use her own words) to show exactly how much of a lying, manipulative, violent scumbag she is.

^^
THIS
absolutely

TiddyTidTwo · 11/06/2022 15:54

Seconded

Aspiringmatriarch · 11/06/2022 21:41

Violence? Seriously? You really are calling a few posts on Mumsnet violence?

No. You have misunderstood my post.

What worries us is the blind support she receives in some quarters, regardless of the verdict and a mountain of evidence (to use her own words) to show exactly how much of a lying, manipulative, violent scumbag she is.

And you're entitled to your opinion. I've looked at the same information and come to a different conclusion. There's really nothing more to say.

Tiddy I'm sorry for offending you. I find your posting style quite extreme but it's not my place to say anything really. You seem like a good person.

TiddyTidTwo · 11/06/2022 23:31

No worries @Aspiringmatriarch
My posting style can be clumsy!

Londondreams1 · 13/06/2022 00:48

I’ve been saying I’m on the fence and I’ve just snatched bits of the trial as they’ve popped up on my dress but I did actually see something today that gave me pause for thought.
She said he kicked her, booted her in the back. My ex would do this and it’s a particular kind of violence unlike a punch in the face or hand around the neck. It’s designed to humiliate. This would tie in with the general ‘global humiliation’ of the courtroom and it’s not really the same as a man reacting because he’s lashing out. It’s a different feeling, much more premeditated.
She also said it was done publicly and nobody did a thing, which I can COMPLETELY believe.
It strikes me as believable, to be honest, and yes not the action of a hyper aggressive ‘wife- beater’ type, and as she said her main emotion was mortification, rather than pain or hurt , physical or emotional.
And if he’s done that, then he is the kind of person to wind her up by pushing her buttons, which means her goading might be reactive.
Dunno though, think they were as bad as each other

Londondreams1 · 13/06/2022 00:48

popped up on my feed

carolineshaw · 13/06/2022 16:55

I see Amber is telling her story, or rather more stories, in an interview out in full on Friday.

TiddyTidTwo · 13/06/2022 18:50

@carolineshaw there's an AIBU thread going on this. Perhaps we should all congregate there to keep it on one thread as it's moving more than this one x

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