Referendum in final deal

[Niamer]

In most life- changing decisions, there is a get-out clause. If you buy a house with rising damp, you can pull out before completion, you can break off an engagement if your Mr. Right turns out to be Mr. Notquite. I assume most reasonable people would like the opportunity to have a look at the brexit deal we get from the EU and decide if that's really the best way forward. If you agree, please sign and share. petition.parliament.uk/petitions/193282

Would you care to elaborate further on "taking jobs off local people"

Where were you?

Almost all of the available research shows that EU migrants don't effect the rate of employment of UK nationals.

This also includes migrant workers who have taken the jobs off local people.

Like the Normans taking building jobs off the Celts? Damn Norman churches, immigrants put them up all over the place. They should be pagan like the real British.

As I said, the wider data shows that EU migrants don't effect the rate of employment of UK nationals at all, there may be some small instances of it happening, but its not the wider trend or a common experience.

The same can be said for wages.

www.ft.com/content/0deacb52-178b-11e6-9d98-00386a18e39d

www.niesr.ac.uk/blog/how-small-small-impact-immigration-uk-wages#.WPDaDIgrK00

sending people home after 3 months good luck finding them is not the same as stopping them from ever entering our country.

Is there any suggestion that leaving the EU would result in stopping people from ever entering our country ? I mean, we're not ever planning to completely close the borders to foreigners are we? So aforementioned objectionable people would be able to enter anyway.

I do know an American who has overstayed his tourist visa. Shock horror, he actually works too, thus taking a job a UK born citizen could do. Do I shop him? (No, I am not going to.)

No leaver has ever answered why the EU would negotiate a good deal with us if they knew another referendum would make it in their interests to give us the M.O.A.Bad deals.

I Imagine if we did have a second referendum on deal or stay, remainers will call it a bad deal, leavers will call it a good deal and there wont be any definitive way to decide objectively which it is. We might have some info on what the deal looks like but no experience on how it will work and what the UK will really be like when it gets out of the EU sandbox. So the whole campaign will end up being run on speculation, fear and even more entrenched opinions.

Remainers will vote down the deal to stay in the EU and Leavers will vote up the deal to leave the EU. So whats the point?

A referendum that might make sense would be on deal or no deal but why even bother with that when we have a Parliament? If Parliament votes down TMs deal I would expect there would have to be a general election. So again whats the point of a referendum?

And what if Leave won a second referendum with a slim majority, would we have to have a third referendum tie breaker?

And what would happen to our country in the mean time, more destabilization for years to come, more division, what if referendums start being perceived as illegitimate because we are rerunning them until we get the result that some people like. If we have a general election and a different government has a different opinion would another referendum have to be called to get a different result? Will the supreme court have to step in, mabye the ECJ or ECHR?

The only logical position is mutually assured destruction we keep our heads, stop having referendums and make our democratic exit from the EU work for the UK. That is why I dont want another referendum.

Nah, the reason you don't want another referendum is because you know leave wouldn't possibly win, there would be a far larger majority for remain this time.

Mainly because all of the promises from the NHS to the fishing industry have already be reneged on.

"I used to live in an area where the EU subsidies have had an adverse affect and have moved to an area where the EU subsidies are beneficial. "

What kind of adverse effects were the subsidies having?

If it's so easy for immigrants to move to another country, sometimes leaving immediate family behind and usually leaving extended family and friends behind (with all the support networks that go with that), why do many Brits object to even moving within their own country to look for work?

Anyone who thinks an international move is easy should try it some time.

What many Brits object to is the fact that most other European nationalities can speak English sufficiently competently to move here and work (DH is German for example and speaks 5 languages fluently, my step-mum is Norwegian and speaks 7 languages fluently and my step-brother is a professional translator), whereas most Brits can speak English and the odd word of French or Spanish. Whereas the freedom to move is liberating if you have the requisite language skills to do so, it's debilitating if you don't.

Nah, the reason you don't want another referendum is because you know leave wouldn't possibly win, there would be a far larger majority for remain this time

Nope I honestly believe Leave would probably win again and all the research since the referendum confirms this. Recent YouGov poll shows that overall the public think Brexit should go ahead by 69% to 21%

all of the promises from the NHS to the fishing industry have already be reneged on

Your just spouting opinions, the FACT is that negotiations have hardly even begun so how can any promises be broken on a deal we haven't reached? How do you know that extra money will not go to the NHS after we leave the EU? How are you so sure about what a future government will do post Brexit?

"why do many Brits object to even moving within their own country to look for work?"

Oh yes, a big issue in the referendum for many was that the work had gone from areas of heavy industry, and the whine was "they never do anything for us" , except the government has, but what a lot of people want is a return to the relatively well paid, heavy industry which had few barriers to entry in terms of education, and they want it created on their doorstep. I'm from Consett County Durham originally and I see this back home all the time.

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Oh well I guess its nothing then, whats 7.2 billion between friends. Somebody tell the NHS they dont need any of that 7.2 billion as its peanuts and would make no difference.

Hello, Anon I'm sorry to break it to you, but the bus thing was a lie, the NHS is getting no more money, and TM said 'let us be clear' so this must be true.

the adverse effects would be paying farmers to no longer farm the land thus equally fewer jobs.

The same with the influx of eu workers doing the remaining seasonal no skilled farm work.

Dannythechampion

Yes, the wider data but that isn't all data. and you yourself state that in "small instances" its not beneficial.

So is there unemployment because of EU immigration then?

Just asking cause the general response from farmers has been concern regarding filling positions.

The response on the thread was someone posting that tesco were saying that farmers etc.

and again you are saying "general response" from farmers not all farmers.

So before we get in to more generalisations.
What I am saying is that not all EU subsidies have been beneficial and not all immigration has been beneficial.

and yes it is anecdotal.

I wouldn't go on the polls, they have been shown to be very inaccurate, they said leave would win 60/40 last time.

As Twofingers said, its already been said that there will be no extra money for the NHS, and as I pointed out extra money that could have been used for services has already been set aside to deal with the consequences of brexit.

The fishing industry? Farage was on the TV the other day saying that its already been discussed that the Fishing rights will be kept the same in order for other industries to get preferred access.

The FACT is, that very few of the promises of the leave campaign are going to be fulfilled, they started back tracking the day after they left.

I feel really sad for people who voted out because of the things that were promised.

Farmers don't have to accept subsidies though do they? They can equally not farm that particular product and do something else with the land.

The farmers union backed remaining too.

Dannythechampion

But in this case am not talking about the farmers, but how it has effected those that used to work for them.

and the land isn't farmed on as the EU subsidies the farmers not to farm the land and leave it fallow.

Thanks.

So this causes unemployment in the area but EU immigrants still come for work? Are they the temporary type?

It tends to be seasonal (arable farming, fruit picking) work.

The workers can follow the work around the farms and normally do so in "gangs" (not nasty gangster gangs just groups of people that stay together) and work under a gang master.

They are generally cheaper than than the locals.

wouldn't go on the polls, they have been shown to be very inaccurate, they said leave would win 60/40 last time.

Which polls, Danny, the ones leading up to last June's referendum?

Thanks that's good information. :)

One of the issues is going to be then that industries like agriculture are still going to be allowed to bring in immigrants to do the work.

Last year sometime there was a really interesting convo on here regarding Boston and the impact of immigration and the EU etc.

As I recall two or three posters went into depth about pay data, how Boston had always been a lower paid area than other parts of Lincolnshire and the Eastern Counties, how it had low unemployment and that the local council data showed something like 95% of kids getting into their first choice school.

Oh and that immigration had been the main concern of locals back in 2001 as well, so before the EU8 accession.

It did seem to show that for some agricultural areas the impact of immigration was over egged.

I'm sorry to break it to you, but the bus thing was a lie, the NHS is getting no more money, and TM said 'let us be clear' so this must be true.

I can only speak for myself and I paid little attention to the bus thing other than to laugh at remainers fake outrage about it. What I took from it was that after Brexit we will have the opportunity of using the money we now pay to the EU for other things. eg the NHS. So at the next election I will be looking to see what each of the parties propose. I see no reason to conclude that no parties will propose to use some of it on the NHS.

I can only speak for myself and I paid little attention to the bus thing other than to laugh at remainers fake outrage about it. What I took from it was that after Brexit we will have the opportunity of using the money we now pay to the EU for other things. eg the NHS

So... you didn't pay attention to it, but believed it at the same time because you now think the money could go to the NHS. Okay
P.S. Don't think the outrage was fake. I was genuinely outraged by the blatant lie and the fact that we had descended so low in political campaigning. I was also genuinely outraged by the Farage poster.