Referendum in final deal

[Niamer]

In most life- changing decisions, there is a get-out clause. If you buy a house with rising damp, you can pull out before completion, you can break off an engagement if your Mr. Right turns out to be Mr. Notquite. I assume most reasonable people would like the opportunity to have a look at the brexit deal we get from the EU and decide if that's really the best way forward. If you agree, please sign and share. petition.parliament.uk/petitions/193282

The EU have always said that article 50 can be revoked.

I don't think that's quite the case, Danny. Various people connected with the EU such as Guy Verhofstadt has opined that it would be possible, for example, and Lord Kerr who drafted it also thinks it is revocable but, as tropical said, more recently Barnier has been lobbying to make sure that it can't be revoked in a cynical way - eg the negotiations are going badly for the UK, we withdraw A50 and then retrigger it when we think the time is right. Funnily enough, both sides, the UK and the EU seem to think that its potential reversibility might give the other side the upper hand. It will be up to the ECJ to rule on if and how it can be revoked. I have everything crossed that it can be undone unilaterally.

I agree that the UK shouldn't be able to trigger it, then untrigger only to do it again later. Although they should be able to reverse it if they choose to, but it has to be with a commitment to stay in.

Although I wouldn't put it past this shower to do the former.

It didn't even occur to me that that would be a strategy until Barnier started muttering about it and then I thought: "Yeah, you've probably got a point,"

I'm in Germany for a few days and this was a picture on the front page of a newspaper here (along with a headline that said many MPs don't think Germany should offer a compromise on Brexit). This is how we look to outsiders. Thanks Brexit.

Many non-EU countries are involved in EU research funding (ERC), including Israel and Turkey. Perfectly possible for us to stay involved.
I would support another referendum if the choice was 'deal or no deal'. We have agreed to leave the EU, so the only options left are the deal done by the govt or no deal at all.

We have control of our borders. There are controls in place to repatriate unemployed EU citizens that the government have chosen not to use
That statement alone demonstrates we don't have control of our borders. Unemployed EU citizens should not be allowed to cross the border into our country. Unfortunately in the EU, we are not allowed to stop them.

we ARE the people in Brussels. We vote for MEPs
No we, the UK, are less than 10% of the MEPs

If it had been a binding referendum there would have been conditions in terms of the size of the majority and the turnout

You mean like a 60% turnout and a 50%+1 vote to win a majority? Bar passed.

The EU seems to be on a saintly pedestal, it sends us doctors & nurses, grants of money from the magic money tree to fund our research and universities. What a croc of shit, we pay for ALL these services. The doctors and nurses aren't missionaries of the EU coming here to heal our sick. Its a transaction that we PAY for. The EHIC card isn't a freebie, its a quid pro quo we ultimately pay for in our taxes, which seems to cost us a lot more than we gain what with all the health tourism. The grants we get for research, agriculture etc is ultimately paid for out of our budget contributions. Yes some countries get more than they put in but the UK is NOT one of them.

So to say we have benefited from the EU is like saying we are saved from starvation by the benefits that Tesco sprinkles on us every time we give them our hard earned cash.

Would anyone be outraged if we were banned from shopping anywhere else but Tesco? Well we want to be free of the gilded EU cage so we can be open to shopping doing trade deals with the rest of the world.

Anon, which country or countries you want to trade with and cannot trade now but will be able after Brexit?

I have experience of trading under WTO and while it's not the end of the world, however, it requires more advanced planning,
Higher cost, longer delivery, certification, custom declaration etc. Also there are quotas which are limited.

My concern is under WTO UK businesses will lose quite a few suppliers and customers who will switch to competitors. Of course, it depends on market and product, competition, etc.

And It will be difficult to replace UK export/import to/from EU with export/import to/from other countries within 2 years.

Do you think that if there is another referendum the Leave campaign will get their bus out again? :D

"You mean like a 60% turnout and a 50%+1 vote to win a majority? Bar passed."

I'd have said it would need to be decisive, like a 60% majority for leave or we remain.

We do have control of our borders, unemployed EU nationals can be sent home after 3 months. But complaining about EU nationals on benefits is poor, because they make up a smaller proportion of the JSA claimant count than they make up a proportion of the workforce, so they are under represented. YOu realise that there are lots of unemployed Brits in the EU too right?

"The doctors and nurses aren't missionaries of the EU coming here to heal our sick. Its a transaction that we PAY for"

But we don't pay for their training so this is of direct net benefit to us.

" which seems to cost us a lot more than we gain what with all the health tourism."

One of the most significant set of health tourists are British Ex pats who are no longer entitled to treatment here but are able to register with GPs and access treatment that way.

Believe me when I say, there aren't Polish, French, German or Hungarian people coming here deliberately to use our NHS, its a ridiculous ignorance of British people that they think that, of Eastern Europe especially, as having some sort of developing world standards of health care, I'd say health care in Poland was at least the equal, if not better, than NHS care.

"Yes some countries get more than they put in but the UK is NOT one of them."

When you work out our net contribution to the EU its probably about 7.2 bn with all the deductions. Its less than 1% of entire public spending or about 6% of the NHS budget. Its tiny.

Our exports to Poland alone equal £6 bn, our exports to the central European economies are £18bn and developing fast. So in terms of trade with Europe we get our entire gross contribution ( including rebate) back in trade with these economies, who are the newer ones i the EU. These figures also don't include profits repatriated from these countries through opportunities exploited through freedom of movement of capital, for example Tesco has a significant market share of the Polish Grocery market, which it wouldn't have been able to exploit without FOM of capital.

Then there are things like the 570bn Euro clearing business which is done in the UK, and is huge net benefit to the UK economy.

Your Tesco analogy is poor and shows a dramatic misunderstanding of the ways that the EU benefits us, and a clear ignorance of the finer points of international trade.

Anon I think most remainers would agree that the EU has flaws and most leavers would agree membership has benefits.

"Do you think that if there is another referendum the Leave campaign will get their bus out again? "

This is a really interesting question. If the campaign were run now, how would Leave sell it? They've acknowledged that there was no £350m for the NHS, that we can't stay in the single market and end FOM, and generally have moved on from "it's all going to be great" to "we never said it wasn't going to be tough".

Looking at the direction Leave.EU have been going in lately, with for example their recent tweet promoting something between capital punishment and lynching, I have a feeling it could get very dark indeed.

Leave wouldn't win if there was another referendum.

Yes I think why not? I mean Brexit voters surely have nothing to fear from another referendum. Apparently none of them regret their vote or have changed their mind.
Seems like a sensible idea really.

Leave wouldn't win if there was another referendum.

I would hope that no one would believe the lie about more money for the NHS or taking back sovereignty, which we never lost. Other than that, don't underestimate the power of the right wing media. Who are still going on and on and on about immigrants etc. even though it has become apparent that we need them.

I think there are obviously hardcore leavers, and obviously those who have their issues with immigration, but there are also those that protest voted, those that believed the NHS fibs and other massive fibs.

It does however appear that a lot of "project fear" is becoming project reality.

Leave wouldn't win a second time.

Its why they have to try to get all of what they want in a hard brexit right now, and why they tried not to use parliament, and when were they forced to decried any opposition as treachery.

They'll never get a second chance.

which country or countries you want to trade with and cannot trade now but will be able after Brexit?
What a leading question, its not which country you can trade with. Its about trading with countries under terms that are agreed by the UK not the EU.

We do have control of our borders, unemployed EU nationals can be sent home after 3 months
You can say it as many times as you want, sending people home after 3 months good luck finding them is not the same as stopping them from ever entering our country.

But we don't pay for their training so this is of direct net benefit to us
No but we do pay for plenty of training that then goes abroad. I wonder how many people would rather be treated by a doctor trained in a UK university over a cut price import who struggles with English.

When you work out our net contribution to the EU its probably about 7.2 bn with all the deductions. Its less than 1% of entire public spending or about 6% of the NHS budget. Its tiny.
Oh well I guess its nothing then, whats 7.2 billion between friends. Somebody tell the NHS they dont need any of that 7.2 billion as its peanuts and would make no difference.

Anyone see a gravy train around here, apparently its tiny?

My understanding may not be right here, but having a 2nd referendum on the final deal really does seem like common sense for both leavers and remainers alike. It gives everyone a chance to say whether they're happy with the deal that's been negotiated and whether they still want Brexit on those terms. I don't see what's so controversial about that. Weren't the Leave campaign all about 'taking back control', well that is having some control! Each person has a say on a yes or no on the final deal.
What are Brexit voters afraid of in this instance?

I hope not!

Eventually I would hope that one thing which might come out of this would be electoral reform. The FPTP system is obsolete for the 21st Century and the electorate the size it is.I would hope that we had a couple of coalition governments, until someone said that this was stupid and let's sort out a proper system.

It seems unlikely at the moment, but back in 1992 Labour looked in such disarray they looked as though they would never win again, to absolutely slaughter the Conservatives five years later.

My response was to Danny.

Thanks Peregrina :)

I sincerely believe that. Its why they can't allow any turning back or any compromise, they'll never get another chance.

But we don't pay for their training so this is of direct net benefit to us

No but we do pay for plenty of training that then goes abroad. I wonder how many people would rather be treated by a doctor trained in a UK university over a cut price import who struggles with English.

The remedy is in the hands of our own Government there. I follow this issue keenly, with a relatively newly qualified medic relative, who I would be surprised if she doesn't move abroad within ten years.

Simply because they want to do the job they are trained for, which is cure the sick, and in the end the bureaucracy and the constant staff shortages make them say "enough".

"You can say it as many times as you want, sending people home after 3 months good luck finding them is not the same as stopping them from ever entering our country. "

Well if they're claiming benefit it will be easy to find them. If not then they could have come in on a tourist visa and just disappeared, there is a difference between legal and illegal migrants and you are conflating the two for your own purposes.

"No but we do pay for plenty of training that then goes abroad. I wonder how many people would rather be treated by a doctor trained in a UK university over a cut price import who struggles with English. "

Our staff tend to go somewhere else other than the EU its not like its a trade. I'd question your last little statement, there can't be many EU trained medical personnel that struggle with English.

"Somebody tell the NHS they dont need any of that 7.2 billion as its peanuts and would make no difference. "

There is going to be no extra money for the NHS, its already been confirmed. In fact the net contribution seems to have been spent many, many times over. In fact PH has laid over 8.3 times more than this net contribution to deal with issues arising because of Brexit.

"Anyone see a gravy train around here, apparently its tiny?"

The UK net contribution to the EU budget is 5% of the entire EU budget, hardly a gravy train.

So, come again and try some valid arguments, rather than hyperbolic counterfactual rubbish.

I used to live in an area where the EU subsidies have had an adverse affect and have moved to an area where the EU subsidies are beneficial.

This also includes migrant workers who have taken the jobs off local people.

It really isn't as simple as some people would like to make out.