Referendum in final deal

[Niamer]

In most life- changing decisions, there is a get-out clause. If you buy a house with rising damp, you can pull out before completion, you can break off an engagement if your Mr. Right turns out to be Mr. Notquite. I assume most reasonable people would like the opportunity to have a look at the brexit deal we get from the EU and decide if that's really the best way forward. If you agree, please sign and share. petition.parliament.uk/petitions/193282

Another thing to remember about Boston is that it effectively woke up one morning to find that its population had grown because the government had dumped a large number of immigrants there.

A low paid area suddenly flooded with extra people which it had no way of supporting.

It easy very easy to see why some areas of the country are anti-EU

Waves frantically - or drowning.
Some people did believe it.

twofingerstoEverything

The whole referendum was a low point in political campaigning.

But then what we have is no longer fit for purpose (IMO)

"I can only speak for myself and I paid little attention to the bus thing other than to laugh at remainers fake outrage about it. What I took from it was that after Brexit we will have the opportunity of using the money we now pay to the EU for other things. eg the NHS."

Have you ever seen our EU contributions laid out as a percentage of government spending? It's tiny. On a pie chart it's a sliver almost too small to see. Even if the notorious figure were close to correct, it is sadly far smaller than what we are on course to lose in tax take and investment.

I'm not sure the immigrants were dumped by the government Boney, I think its worth noting that Immigration in Boston was a key issue prior to EU 8 accession though. The population did increase between 2001 and 2011 by about 10,000 though.

Its frustrating that I can't find the thread with all the Boston data on it, but there was a really good link to a council document regarding immigration, and debunked many of the things spoken about Boston in the run up to the vote.

"Have you ever seen our EU contributions laid out as a percentage of government spending? It's tiny."

The net contribution is less than 1% of all public spending.

As has been said before as well, its been promised to so many people already. Its also likely that the 3.2bn in subsidies to farmers is likely to continue, with few changes to how they are administered ( remember the government hands them out already).

So... you didn't pay attention to it, but believed it at the same time because you now think the money could go to the NHS. Okay

Seriously are you that naive? This is how politics works, politicians spin, voters have to try and look behind the veil and see the intention. I determined that yes we do send money to the EU, after Brexit I do believe that one of the political parties will campaign to use some of that on the NHS. And voters will decide.

Its no different that Jeremy C's claims of spending money on everything, he is just pulling money bombs out of his butt at the moment, is there outrage? I dunno but the magic money tree is a common political campaign tool, if anyone is outraged then they are very naive.

I equally laughed at the prospect of a punishment budget, lol which I took was equally incredulous at. Some people believe these things, some dont, its how the world works.

Kaija and Dannythechampion its tiny as a percentage, I accept that, always have. Its still a lot of money. Whats your point?

Effectively we've had the punishment budget, taxes were set to rise for the self employed, money that could have been spent on services is held back to pay for Brexit. Austerity has been extended till 2025. Its just been covered under another name is all.

The point regarding the size of the net EU contribution ( less than 1% of public spending) is that it has to be viewed in context. Its a lot of money when viewed on its own, in terms of public spending its really not a lot of money.

Its why I think it needs pointing out that the EU is not on a gravy train paid for by the UK too, the net contribution from the UK is about 5% of the entire EU budget.

Context is key.

It's a lot less than we are set to lose. There will be less money available, not more.

Oh yes that needs pointing out too, if there is even a slight downturn in the UK economy its wiped from the tax take.

Dannythechampion

What I was trying to put across was the feelings around the time.

I haven't been in Boston for a long long time.

I haven't either but I thought the conversation on here regarding it was very good. The links to the pay data, the council report etc, were enlightening.

I think its important to register people's feelings too, but also to acknowledge that what people feel isn't always correct.

I agree, but to overlook people's feelings and the reasons behind them is why (IMO) we are here discussing an actual brexit.

I think the problem is a lot of the time you can discuss the reasons behind it, you actually get down to the fact that the source of their feelings isn't what they think it is.

However people don't like this sort of challenging thinking, and prefer to have their bias confirmed.

Boston and immigration is more a reaction to change than anything else, it hasn't driven down wages, which have been historically lower than other areas, it hasn't caused unemployment which is low, it doesn't cause excess demand on the services.

What it does do is drive the price of rent up, but again this is partially down to the fact that Boston didn't modernise much in the 1960's like most other places, there weren't more houses built then and this impacts the prices now.

Its a reaction to change in a place where there hasn't been much change for decades.

Effectively we've had the punishment budget

Oh really? Guess Brexit has been pretty painless then as I didn't feel the punishment. What was it again?

But that's the thing isn't it, it hasn't happened yet, even the effects of the budget won't have been felt for a while.

We were supposed to be out of the age of austerity by 2019/20, now its going to last till 2015. Funds for public services are going to be used to fund issues that arise because of Brexit.

The tax rises got U turned on because the Mail wouldn't wear it.

You might not have felt it, but plenty will.

Although it is a reaction to change, change still hasn't followed.
And its not just Boston but the whole of Lincolnshire.

You have an entire county that has only just recently (compared to the country) had a motorway built.
Most of the coast is caravan parks and it is still (time-wise) 1950 in some areas.

The problem is that when they say immigrant lots of the rest of the country say 'racist' without filling in the details.

I know, but part of the problem with that is when they say "immigrants" they also blame that section of the population for things that aren't caused by immigration.

Parts of the changes are caused by the difference in farming techniques over the last 20 years. Migrant workers used to come in, stay on the farm, or come in daily from other areas for harvest time. Now the changes mean that farming happens on a much larger scale all year round, far more than it used to.

Dannythechampion

I know, but part of the problem with that is when they say "immigrants" they also blame that section of the population for things that aren't caused by immigration.

that is were the explanation comes in. These people are not thick. They want people to listen without judging, explaining without belittling and some sort of action plan put in place that the higher up people are accountable for.

You cant say we have had the punishment budget and then say effectively we've had the punishment budget and then go on to conflate it it with what would have happened irrespective of Brexit.
More lies from remoaners project fear. zzzz

What would have happened irrespective of Brexit?

£60 bn wouldn't be put aside if Brexit hadn't happened.
We'd be still on target for a budget surplus ( rightly or wrongly) by 2019 and therefore austerity might have an end in sight. Now its kicked back till 2025 ( because of Brexit) and austerity will now last longer.

The tax increases wouldn't even have been suggested without Brexit.

More leavers and their fingers in their ears, if you think its going to be ok it will be, in your head.

I said initially that "effectively we've had the punishment budget" I didn't sate two different things.

Where is the conflation with things that would have happened irrespective of Brexit, all of the things have happened because of brexit, and austerity lasting another 5 years is a punishment.

I just wonder if passing, if Mrs Thatcher, being a Lincolnshire woman, had a better finger on the pulse of these areas than Theresa May does? Although as has been said, farming has changed and the roving gangs of farm workers are no more, so Maggie might not recognise the Lincolnshire of today.

Project Fear?

You're going to have to stop using that phrase, and start using Project Reality, although not all of the predictions have come true instantly, some were long term, lots of them are coming true.

Stalling investment, rising inflation, firms leaving, airlines having major issues, reassurances ( possibly financial) needed for car firms, other firms setting up EU offices and much more.

All this without article 50 being declared as it was supposed to on June 24th.

"That is were the explanation comes in. These people are not thick. They want people to listen without judging, explaining without belittling and some sort of action plan put in place that the higher up people are accountable for."

Yes, but explaining doesn't seem to work does it? The Boston Council document

www.boston.gov.uk/CHttpHandler.ashx?id=8079&p=0

Lays out the realities of the situation, with the myths regarding impact on jobs, pay, crime, education and health all dealt with properly.

People don't want to listen though.