Referendum in final deal

[Niamer]

In most life- changing decisions, there is a get-out clause. If you buy a house with rising damp, you can pull out before completion, you can break off an engagement if your Mr. Right turns out to be Mr. Notquite. I assume most reasonable people would like the opportunity to have a look at the brexit deal we get from the EU and decide if that's really the best way forward. If you agree, please sign and share. petition.parliament.uk/petitions/193282

I think she is implying I'm someone else using another username.

We want the UK to have the power to stop people at the border and say, "No your not coming in here". We dont want to let people in and then have to chase them after three months.

Again - does this mean we are cancelling tourism?

Danny I see you give no explanation about why you want to allow everyone to come into our own country without invitation and be powerless to stop them.

I want the UK to be in control of its own borders because I dont want to live in an EU superstate and have the EU dictate what we can and cant do. That is why I am against FOM. Its pretty simple.

Again - does this mean we are cancelling tourism?
No we are not cancelling tourism, there is a difference between 2 weeks holiday then going home and an unemployed person or family coming here to look for work, then the state having to track them down and take them to court to try and deport them. Unless they have got someone pregnant in which case they probably have a right to a family life.

We have powers to stop people coming in. We have powers to remove people once here.

" I dont want to live in an EU superstate and have the EU dictate what we can and cant do."

An EU superstate is extremely unlikely, in any case Cameron negotaited exemption from ever closer union and so we'd have been able to avoid this if it was going to happen.

The EU doesn't dictate what we can and cannot do, parliament never lost sovereignty, we take part in the decision making processes in the EU, we get input into agreements, and research shows that 90% of the time EU policy is in line with UK government policies.

None of those things that you have identified explain why you are against FOM, its all hyperbole and alternative facts so far.

there is a difference between 2 weeks holiday then going home and an unemployed person or family coming here to look for work, then the state having to track them down

How could we tell, at the point of entry, which course of action the (presumably nefarious) incoming foreigner is intending?

"unemployed person or family coming here to look for work, then the state having to track them down and take them to court to try and deport them"

Why would they have to track down an unemployed person? If they are here and claiming JSA then they are easy to find.

If they aren't working they can be deported for not exercising their treaty rights, similarly to illegal immigration. You seem to be conflating FOM with illegal immigration here.

Danny the key is, in the future, we do not have to give the incomer an NI number, so they cannot work. If they are self-supporting then fine, otherwise they will g home themselves.
Is the EU happy with uncontolled numbers workers coming in freely from outside the EU? Why are the migrants not all given working rights, after all, that is beneficial to an economy. Free movement of capital, goods and services does not have to be linked to people.
Why is the EU pretty much the only trading block with these rights?

"Why are the migrants not all given working rights, after all, that is beneficial to an economy"

Asylum seekers in Germany and other countries operate under different rules than here, they can work.

"Is the EU happy with uncontrolled numbers workers coming in freely from outside the EU?"

Conflating the two again Carol, there are significant difference between FOM within the EU, and uncontrolled immigration from outside it. I've explained this repeatedly and you fail to acknowledge that and keep returning to this poor comparison.

ASEAN is looking to bring in the four freedoms more fully than it is at the minute.

The majority don't really object to FOM, we've been told ad infinitum by posters on here that their vote wasn't about immigration

This is not true. Before the referendum campaigns over several years many polls showed above 70% were dissatisfied with current immigration levels. Obvs once some of the remain campaign started to try to imply anyone wishing to end FOM is a racist, many people kept quiet about FOM. Interestingly, now we are Brexiting, a fair % of remain voters are telling pollsters that they want to see an end to FOM.

The majority do not want FOM.

I'm not implying that anyone is racist, I'm keen to know why people object to FOM.

It seems that lots of the areas that have high immigration levels are ok with FOM, where as those that don't aren't.

I'd like to know why.

Again, no explanation on why, letting anyone come here without an invitation and without us having any ability to say no you cant enter, is a good thing.

If your against the UK having the right to end FOM and controlling who crosses its borders then you must have some sort of hidden agenda?

"anyone come here without an invitation and without us having any ability to say no you cant enter, is a good thing. "

Because I have already addressed that, what you are proposing goes on is not what actually happens.

If you are against FOM you've got to be able to articulate why you are against it in a better way than you have.

If you are against FOM you've got to be able to articulate why you are against it in a better way than you have.

Why?

I'll move it on though.

How do you feel about the fact that several of those leading the EU exit have stated that EU immigration is unlikely to fall considerably?

Or that reciprocal rights to things like in work benefits, benefits out of work are likely to continue in something similar to their current format.

Dannythechampion - this is an Internet forum, no one has to answer you or explain anything to you.

Get a grip.

Sorry, have i just said that we'll move it on ?

Danny there are significant difference between FOM within the EU, and uncontrolled immigration from outside it. I've explained this repeatedly
I must have missed that, where is it?
I was also not talking about uncontrolled immigration, but uncontrolled immigration of workers who can stay as long as they have jobs or are studying - the EU does not allow that from outside the EU, but you argue it is beneficial to the receiving country, so should be very much welcomed by the EU.

Carol, you've had this explained numerous times, clearly, and have never addressed anything that I've said.

Within the EU circumstances are different, there are the other 3 freedoms that all countries benefit from on top of that of migration, there are agreements on reciprocal treatment of all EU nationals, there are agreements on medical care. There are agreements on when you can be repatriated, there is far closer economic integration within the EU than there are with other countries. These are reasons why comparing freedom of movement for all, rather than just FOM from the EU is not accurate.

EU immigration has been beneficial to the UK

I've asked you why you are opposed to it, and you haven't done anything than ask this question repeatedly.

I've answered yours, even though its an attempt to create a strawman argument, you answer mine.

EU immigration has been beneficial to the UK

Come on Carol You've had this explained a number of times now. Look, it's there in black and white. EU FOM is a Good Thing for the UK perhaps not for all the citizens of the UK, but let's keep it simple, shall we?

I have my Bank Holiday Monday hat on me here, so forgive me....

As far as I can see, the UK will get a trade deal with the EU. BUT it will have to maintain EU regs and standards in order to trade with them.

In order to remain in the Single Market FOM is mandatory, just like non EU members Iceland, Norway, Lichtenstein and Switzerland agreed for access. I realise that Switzerland is neither in EU nor EEA, but they comply with FOM.

How does UK think it will get access to the single market without FOM? Or maybe they just want a reciprocal agreement on tariffs and trades. Okay. That may work, but there is a possibility of higher tariffs being introduced from UK to EU isn't there? Anything is possible really.

Remember FOM allows UK citizens to live and work anywhere within the EU also, but net movement into the UK is probably greater because most EU speak good English, whereas I doubt very many UK people speak good Dutch, French, German etc. so not as mobile really.

Anyway, just going to grab a cup of tea. Might see you later.

Woodpigeon, no one has identified any reasons that FOM might not have been beneficial to the UK?

Please do.

Danny

Closer examination reveals that the biggest effect is in the semi/unskilled services sector, where a 10 percentage point rise in the proportion of immigrants is associated with a 2 percent reduction in pay

Fromthis BOE report.

Carol - go and stand in the corner - Danny has explained numerous times (apparently)!!

Time4, that was in response to Carol's previous question, which I had explained.

Thanks for responding Carol.

:)

That report is really interesting, because it shows how marginal the impact of immigration is on pay.

Directly from the report:

"In the latter cases, the coefficients indicate that a 10 percentage point rise in the proportion of immigrants working in semi/unskilled services - that is, in care homes, bars, shops, restaurants, cleaning, for example - leads to a 1.88 percent reduction in pay."

So its actually smaller than 2%, but whatever we'll round up. It also needs to be noted that a 10 percentage point increase is incredibly large the entire rise in the number of immigrants working in the semi/unskilled services sector has increased by which is about 7 percentage points since the 2004-2006 period. The impact of migration on the wages of the UK-born in this sector since 2004 has been about 1 percent, over a period of 8 years.

Now this is not nothing, but it is not the main driver of low wages in these sectors in the UK.

It should be further noted that this effect is completely negated by the increases to the tax threshold over the last 5 years, as well as the rising minimum wage.

There are far larger other factors at play when we consider low pay, things like level of the minimum wage, the decline in trade union power, technological and industrial change, as well as the slow recovery from the 2008 financial crash.

For further reading:

www.niesr.ac.uk/blog/how-small-small-impact-immigration-uk-wages#.WPT-bIgrK00