Referendum in final deal

[Niamer]

In most life- changing decisions, there is a get-out clause. If you buy a house with rising damp, you can pull out before completion, you can break off an engagement if your Mr. Right turns out to be Mr. Notquite. I assume most reasonable people would like the opportunity to have a look at the brexit deal we get from the EU and decide if that's really the best way forward. If you agree, please sign and share. petition.parliament.uk/petitions/193282

Can you tell us why you are opposed to FOM?

Danny Again, if FOM is so good, why is FOM not allowed from outside the EU to into the EU?

Because outside of the EU they don''t have the other 3 freedoms too maybe?

Or perhaps because the EU doesn't have reciprocal agreements with these other countries? Or a similar level of economic integration?

Why are you so opposed to it from within the EU?

I just want to know why the EU is so opposed to it from outside?

Is the EU opposed to it from outside?

It seems to have supported the refugee crisis to a high level. As previously said too, there are the other things that you need to consider such as reciprocal rights, the economic integration etc.

Why are you opposed to FOM from the EU?

Dannythechampion

Can you tell us why you are opposed to FOM?

For the same reason why I dont let strangers live in my house.

Can you tell us why you are so desperate to every stranger in the world EU move into your street?

I didn't say that I was, that's hyperbole.

Your reason is poorly conflating two seperate issues too.

Why are you so opposed to FOM?

Why are you so opposed to FOM?

Because I dont know if the anyone freely moving here shares my values, has the same economic parity, the same religious tolerance, have made the same contributions to society, the same educational values and a lot more.

Perhaps you could share why you think the world should be allowed to move to your street and join the UK club without preconditions?

I didn't say the world should be allowed to share my street, just EU workers will do for now.

"shares my values, has the same economic parity, the same religious tolerance, have made the same contributions to society, the same educational values and a lot more. "

So this would be most people who've come from EU countries then, wouldn't it? The problem is also that you can't ensure that these conditions are always met even when you have controlled immigration.

So as most of the conditions you've set are met by the overwhelming majority of people moving under FOM then you're happy for it to continue?

Good.

the world should be allowed to share my street, just EU workers will do for now

And yet still no justification for any one? Why EU and not the world?

"shares my values, has the same economic parity, the same religious tolerance, have made the same contributions to society, the same educational values and a lot more. "

They dont seem to share my values, they dont have economic parity or the same religions tolerance or educational values.

So Unless the can can prove they do have they shouldn't be allowed into the UK. Does the Eu allow this test?

Ah but that's your judgement.

Out of the EU countries almost all are in the top 40 of the PISA test rankings, many of the EU 8 are higher than the UK.

There is the same level of relgious tolerance in all EU countries by law, most people are tolerant, there are some bad eggs, but then there are in this country.

Mind you I wouldn't be waving the tolerance flag based on some of your judgements here.

Most EU countries have economic parity with the UK in most ways.

The UK doesn't even apply this "test" when its dealing with controlled immigration.

Ah but that's your judgement
Of course it is, just like your opinion is your judgement.

Out of the EU countries almost all are in the top 40 of the PISA test rankings
But NOT ALL

There is the same level of relgious tolerance in all EU countries by law
But by reality NOT ALL

Most EU countries have economic parity with the UK in most ways
But NOT ALL

So because the UK is different I want different things and the ability to control them.

"I want different things and the ability to control them"

But you're not going to get that are you? You don't have it with the immigration that is controlled now, EU immigration is still going to have fewer controls on it than that.

So what is your problem with it really? Because with controlled migration you don't have the controls you want already, and almost all of your conditions are met by the EU countries.

"In reality not all" for religious tolerance? Well there also isn't that level of religious tolerance in reality here is there.

I

Danny You are being very sophistic. The EU has very tightly controlled external borders, hence the migrant crisis and deals with Turkey.
If uncontrolled immigration was a good thing, then Greece and Italy would be delighted with the number of people turning up on their doorstep and want to keep them. Why is the EU demanding members take a quota of the refugees/migrants from outside? Why are Hungary etc fighting this?
If FOM is an unalloyed good, then the EU should have unilateral open borders. As it doesn't then the EU (and Remainers) believe immigration should be controlled.
Therefore all we are discussing is where the control sits. Some (most?) remainers think it should be at the EU borders, some (most?) leavers think it should be at the UK borders.

Danny
You argument reminds me of a school bully teacher standing at the classroom door saying, "sit down, shut up and take what you are given, you aint getting out the room and if you do there is nutin' out there for you I don't already give you".

carol explains it well, I want control to sit in the UK where we can change the government and its policies if we dont like them.

FOM isn't uncontrolled immigration though is it? This has been pointed out repeatedly, that there is a difference between Freedom of Movement of Labour within the EU, because of the reciprocal rights, the other 3 freedom and levels of economic integration between countries.

But no, you've ignored that and go straight back to your strawman argument regarding FOM from everywhere, and it is a strawman.

Carol you've also failed to explain why you have an issue with FOM.

Most people have a problem with free movement of people, ie we dont want it. We want the UK to have the power to stop people at the border and say, "No your not coming in here". We dont want to let people in and then have to chase them after three months. What part of that dont you understand?

But why?

"We dont want to let people in and then have to chase them after three months. What part of that dont you understand?"

You won't be chasing them unless they don't have a job, as we know that there are an extremely small number claiming JSA overall, about 48,000, most of these aren't new migrants either.

What issues do you have with FOM?

Personally, I don't think it matters that Danny is convinced that FOM within the EU is a Good Thing and that anyone who believes otherwise is a racist or xenophobe (which is, I'm pretty sure, the bottom line of Danny's argument).

Most people (leave and many remain voters) don't want FOM from outside or within the EU.

In my view, if Danny is totally convinced that the majority are wrong, either as concerns the rest of the world or the EU, then really, it is for Danny to try to convince all the people who are "wrong" rather than to keep haranguing people.

If you are right and the majority are wrong, why do you need to know people's reasons to be able to put your case?

I'm not going to argue that people are racist at all.

"If you are right and the majority are wrong, why do you need to know people's reasons to be able to put your case?"

The majority don't really object to FOM, we've been told ad infinitum by posters on here that their vote wasn't about immigration.

But why?
But why not?

The UK is my home, and I think as matter of UK law we should have the right to only allow people into the UK that we invite. It would be like someone asking me but why wont you let complete strangers onto your drive to wash cars. Or like why wont you let complete strangers into your living room to work on their computers, Or like why wont you let complete strangers into your spare bed room for 3 months and if after that you dont like it you can take them to court and try and evict them.

Harry perhaps you could explain why you are so desperate to allow everyone in Europe to come to the UK and look for work without the UK having any say over it whatsoever. Being ok with controlled immigration is not the same as being against FOM.

Personally, I don't think it matters that Danny is convinced that FOM within the EU is a Good Thing and that anyone who believes otherwise is a racist or xenophobe (which is, I'm pretty sure, the bottom line of Danny's argument).

YY to that.

It doesn't matter one bit what Danny thinks, and Danny has been pushing the same narrative in the same haranguing fashion since just after the referendum.

Anon, again that doesn't justify why you are against FOM ( although the nice car washing bit, well done), just quite strange analogies really.

The UK does have a say in FOM and the rules as such, it managed to get concessions on these rules with the Cameron renegotiation.

CopperRose, I'm asking a genuine question, what is it people object to, there has not been a straight answer given at all. I've had Anon's strange analogies above and Carol's strawman argument. Its interesting to know what people object to really without these bizzare attempts to avoid the question.

Danny has been pushing the same narrative in the same haranguing fashion since just after the referendum.
Danny does not appear to have been posting 'since just after the referendum' so how did you come to that conclusion?