Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Brexit

Referendum in final deal

403 replies

Niamer · 12/04/2017 14:31

In most life- changing decisions, there is a get-out clause. If you buy a house with rising damp, you can pull out before completion, you can break off an engagement if your Mr. Right turns out to be Mr. Notquite. I assume most reasonable people would like the opportunity to have a look at the brexit deal we get from the EU and decide if that's really the best way forward. If you agree, please sign and share. petition.parliament.uk/petitions/193282

OP posts:
BoneyBackJefferson · 15/04/2017 19:24

Peregrina

So are they lying or is it your prejudice that is showing?

Peregrina · 15/04/2017 19:30

Lying. When I see some well staffed hospitals as in that advert, which are not for private patients only, I will be prepared to admit I am wrong.

We don't have to bail out the Euro - another lie. Turkey was trying to join the EEC/EU for 35 years at least with no success and no success is on the horizon - another blatant lie.

NoBetterName · 15/04/2017 19:37

Just a question for leavers to ask how they feel about Theresa May's visit to India earlier this year where they basically says that in exchange the a trade deal, they'd like to see restrictions on movement lifted?

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-uk-britain-india-trade-deal-freedom-of-movement-delhi-boris-johnson-a7534026.html

BoneyBackJefferson · 15/04/2017 19:46

Peregrina

I suspect that it is a bit of both.

re the euro, we have bailed it out in the past.

And it wouldn't be the first time that the eu has lowered the standards for a joining country.

caroldecker · 16/04/2017 00:04

Peragrina The Remain campaign promised an emergency budget, with 2% rise in basic rate tax and a 2% cut in education, health and defence (among other things). Did not happen. Both sides lied and most voters know both sides lied. How many people voted remain because they were sacred of the remain lies?
Personally, one reason I voted Leave is because Turkey has not been allowed to join. I see the EU as fundamentally racist.

woman12345 · 16/04/2017 00:09

Personally, one reason I voted Leave is because Turkey has not been allowed to join. I see the EU as fundamentally racist.
Which aspects of EU does Erdogan support?

caroldecker · 16/04/2017 00:34

Woman Turkey has been trying to join for 35 years, well before Erdogan. The EU and UK has supported entry but blocked by France and Germany. To blame Erdogan is to support racism inherent in EU countries.
The UK is the least racist of most of the EU.
France is likely to have a 20-30% vote for Le Pen, Netherlands had around 20% vote for an outright racist, Hungary is ruled by racists, German facists have 16% of the vote.
UKIP only had 14% of the 2015 vote despite the huge anti-EU view of the country.

woman12345 · 16/04/2017 00:49

To blame Erdogan is to support racism inherent in EU countries

So which bit of Erdogan's policies detailed below are EU policies?

www.nytimes.com/2017/04/13/magazine/inside-turkeys-purge.html?hpw&rref=magazine&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=well-region&region=bottom-well&WT.nav=bottom-well

"It was a strange attempt at a coup, at least at first. “What kind of military coup is this?” Turks asked one another when they first saw the soldiers on TV or Twitter occupying the Bosporus Bridge in Istanbul. It was only 10 p.m. — coups happen before dawn, Turkish elders pointed out. The internet and the phone lines had not been shut down; TV stations, for a while, anyway, were still broadcasting freely. The Turkish military would never have staged a coup like this, they said. Turks know their coups; many had lived through four of them already.

Since then, news periodically ripples through Twitter or Facebook that new lists have been released. They are often posted after midnight, and in the terrifying hours that follow, people go online and check for their names, which will also be visible to their neighbors, their bosses, their parents, their sons and daughters. This is how the listed learn that they have lost their jobs, their pensions, their passports. Once on a list, you are stuck in Turkey — with little means to survive. You are subjected to a form of professional death, and in some cases a form of social death: children bullied at school, families vilified in their neighborhoods. The government metes out other punishments too during this extended state of emergency, or Olaganustu Hal, which can also be read as Extraordinary State. Some people are put out of work. Others are arrested, imprisoned or tortured.

The lists aren’t just of people. Entire organizations, however innocuous seeming, show up on them: the Holistic and Alternative Medical Foundation, the Love Trees Protect Forests Live Humanely Foundation, the Gastrointestinal Oncology Foundation, to name just a few. Many of these are not Gulenist but Kurdish or leftist. If it seems as though Turkey’s purge lists are touching every part of its society, that’s because they are.

In February, the Turkish government released a new list — and this time, it was sinister in a new way. The latest wave of purges hit academia again, not just Gulenists or Kurds but especially liberals and leftists, which meant that the purge was spreading. Hundreds of academics, some of the most prominent and well known in the country, found their names on the lists. They, too, face the prospect of losing their passports and their pensions and being unable to seek state employment in Turkey again."

The UK is the least racist of most of the EU
What's your evidence for that?.

caroldecker · 16/04/2017 01:05

woman Voting evidence posted above, less support for racist parties in the UK than most EU countries. Had Turkey been allowed to join the EU, Erdongan would probably not be in power and would not be looking to make allies in the Middle East, which he is forced to do due to EU racism.

Peregrina · 16/04/2017 06:53

The Remain campaign promised an emergency budget, with 2% rise in basic rate tax and a 2% cut in education, health and defence (among other things). Did not happen.

I hadn't asked why anyone voted the way they did. I had said the advert about the NHS was a blatant lie, and nothing which I have seen since has caused me to revise my opinion. None of these happened because Cameron immediately threw in the towel, causing a change of Leadership and a major cabinet reshuffle. Cameron had categorically answered that yes, he would stay on. Cuts in education and health plus food price rices, (among other things) are already happening. I have yet to see the stalwarts of the Leave campaign start to champion the Health service.

If we did not have a first past the vote election system, Farage and UKIP, would undoubtedly have won a number of seats in Parliament. Farage at least is a known racist. Many racists will have been attracted to UKIP on the strength of that.

Peregrina · 16/04/2017 07:30

None of these happened none of the things in the quote, to clarify, although what would have happened if Cameron (nearly put Coward) hadn't run away, and Osborne had remained Chancellor has now just to be guesswork.

Cailleach1 · 16/04/2017 11:40

Maybe you're right, Carol. Maybe now that the UK are free of the supposedly racist EU shackles, it can zoom ahead with that Turkey trade agreement so Erdogan won't be forced to look for like minded regimes elsewhere, such as in the Middle East. UK being the least racist of European countries, like. Human rights abuses or near dictatorships no probs.

Mind you, if that was the case, Penny Mordaunt had no need to lie (to appeal to UK's fears) on TV about Turkey being able to join EU and UK not having veto. I don't think this was to bolster the remain campaign! Also, Farage and his 'breaking point' photo showing refugees/migrants from non-European countries. Such effort was pointless if it was to have no impact.

Willing to do dirty arms deals with horribly abusive, non-EU regimes doesn't make the UK gov't not racist. It just makes it complicit with horribly abusive regimes. There is an interview on record of Alan Clark (then minister fro Defence) being interviewed by John Pilger. He was asked if it bothered him at all that British weapons being sold to foreign gov't's caused such human suffering. He replied that it didn't worry him in the slightest. He was also one for the Bongo Bongo land effort. Also, Boris Johnson's "piccaninnies" remark (I won't mention the stuff he said wrt Obama). Actually, Johnson has form for very objectionable stuff couched in 'humour'. I think it reveals his inner self. One is not surprised, sadly, when it comes from a Kipper, but these others are mainstream politicians. And Boris Johnson was nearly in the running to be the Prime Minister.

Kaija · 16/04/2017 13:02

Well said, Cailleach

caroldecker · 16/04/2017 14:22

Racist people in the UK does not stop the EU and other EU countries being racist.

MarciaBlaine · 16/04/2017 14:29

"Checking a passport at our borders is not the same as controlling our borders. Can we turn EU citizens away at the border just because they dont have a job. NO we can't because we dont control our own borders."

Um, what are you saying here? That we don't let anyone in? That would be great for tourism. We already have the right to send EU people back if they don't meet the criteria for free movement. The issue the UK has vs lots of EU countries is that there are no ID cards and no central database of who is living where and whether they are legally allowed to do so or not. This is not a problem caused by the EU.

MarciaBlaine · 16/04/2017 14:30

And I know the UK has a huge issue with ID cards, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if their introduction is one of the consequences of Brexit.

Peregrina · 16/04/2017 14:34

I could see ID cards being introduced and it would the Tories who did it.

lalalonglegs · 16/04/2017 14:44

Didn't David Davis resign his seat and fight a by-election on the basis that ID cards should not be introduced in the UK? Oh what irony if his Brexit machinations meant they were brought in.

MongerTruffle · 16/04/2017 17:04

We dont need a better deal than membership would allow we just want a sensible, normal deal like Canada just got.

It took almost eight years to negotiate CETA. We have two. Not having enough time to negotiate a fair trade deal is a big issue as 44% of our exported goods and 53% of our imported goods go and come from the EU. If an agreement is not reached, we will have to trade using WTO tariffs. If you've ever bought something online from a non-EEA country, you will have had to pay import tax/duty. The UK will be subject to that if a deal is not negotiated. You make negotiating a trade deal seem much easier than it actually is.

caroldecker · 16/04/2017 18:00

Monger trade deals tend to be difficult due to different standards and the approach to standardisation and which tariffs should be reduced. That does not apply here.
The EU generally has low tariffs for WTO rules, except on agriculture and cars - we import from EU more than we export. 2 years is plenty if both sides want a deal, 8 years is not enough if both sides don't.
WE can also offer no/low tariffs to the rest of the world under WTO rules if we choose to.

Dannythechampion · 16/04/2017 18:41

WTO terms, nor CETA include access for services.

MarciaBlaine · 16/04/2017 18:52

Having in lived in Europe, I don't see the issue with ID cards, especially when you can use them for EU travel and don't need a separate passport. (Though not any more I guess) All these ILR Forms where you have to prove where you were, what you were doing would be obsolete, ditto benefit / health tourism, ditto illegal working. You have one little card that proves your "status" and your eligibility for benefits, schooling and healthcare. Community police checks on you living where you say you live (as standard in many EU countries) would help with fraud and people living illegally. This is something that UK could do now but chooses not to.

Dannythechampion · 16/04/2017 19:01

"WE can also offer no/low tariffs to the rest of the world under WTO rules if we choose to."

Which is unlikely as we will want a certain level of protection for domestic industries.

Cailleach1 · 16/04/2017 22:37

"CETA’s design reflects the industrial profile of trade between Canada and the EU, not the profile of trade between Britain and the EU. Goods that Europe does not produce in big volumes – or at all – dominate Canada’s exports to Europe"

capx.co/the-canada-eu-trade-deal-is-no-model-for-brexit/

Sorry if someone posted it before. It is interesting.

Anon1234567890 · 17/04/2017 00:34

It took almost eight years to negotiate CETA
Luckily we are already EU compliant unlike Canada was. So no reason it cant be done in 2 years. Unless of course the EU want to give us a punishment beating for trying to escape.

what are you saying here? That we don't let anyone in? That would be great for tourism
I am saying letting someone in for a holiday is very very different to letting someone in for life as long as they find a job, any job within several months.