Whitehall “braced for private schools collapse” 3

[ICouldBeVioletSky]

Starting a third thread to discuss impact of VAT on private school fees, as the topic looks likely to run (and run). Though probably best to finish off the second thread before posting here, thx.

How would you like the funding for the very necessary improvement in public services - including state schools, especially the desperately needed expansion in special schools - to be raised?

We all know it needs to be raised, and rapidly. What would your preference be?

It is quite clearly is a race to the bottom, nobody is disputing (not even Labour) that this will result in more children’s education being paid for by tax payers rather than parents.

I am not vitriolic. I see, every day, the impact of years-long cuts in state school education funding on children, and that makes me passionate about improving state schools for all, in the face of a tidal wave of increased need.

I would prefer the funding to come from general taxation, but there seems little public appetite for this.

Quite clearly, asserting a small number of parents who pay for their own children’s education can fund meaningful state school improvements is just populist nonsense.

Hasn't it be proven that the VAT isn't going to raise enough money to fill the gap for funding state education?

I think the current plan is breakfast clubs not new roofs and SEN schools.

If state schools need funding then maybe there should be a tax levy on everyone with children and uses the state school system. Oh hang on that won't get labour any votes.

I would like them to stop spending money on stupid stuff that we can't afford.

Scrap Great British Energy for a start - there's a few billion back (looks like Treasury have realised that this morning). Stop paying millions a week for wind turbines not to turn.

If public services are this desperate we certainly can't afford to be sending money elsewhere in the world. So overseas aid budget needs to be slashed.

Instead, they're spending god knows how much on 4 KCs to defend a policy that may not make any money - and what money it does make is not even ring-fenced for education!

Indeed. 👏 👏 👏

It's the lack of accountability that REALLY irritates me. Phillipson can lie through her teeth about how much was actually raised and how much actually makes its way to the education budget and there is literally no mechanism for anyone - ANYONE - to check the numbers because the mechanism isn't there. VAT is just one general pot. Which will be diverted towards war/defence funds or whatever. Schools will continue to crumble, more pupils will filter in to the overburdened state system, and the govt will say it's all fine. Who will ever have the actual data to check impact?

Even by Labour’s best estimate of what they could raise through private school fee VAT, they were never going to raise a fraction of the sum needed to improve all state schools. Private school parents seem to get blamed for a hell of a lot on these threads - but I’m not sure we can be held responsible for Labour not having any plan. Especially when it seems that the sum that is raised by VAT isn’t even going to be ring fenced for education!

Labour must have a fair few quid to spare, and be a bit concerned, to be forking out for four KCs.

VAT is just one general pot.

This needs repeating, for whatever good it will do. And not only that VAT is one pot, but itself just goes into the general pot of everything. There is no magic funnel from private school fees to new roofs on state schools/0.3 of a teacher per state school/free 60p breakfasts for all state school children/supplies of tar and feathers for people who don't know their place.

And that is assuming this policy doesn't actually cost money to the taxpayer.

Who will ever have the actual data to check impact?

Indeed, on this thread itself, IIRC one supporter of the supposed VAT bonanza was extremely keen for there to be no data collected on impact. You'd think supporters would want to trumpet the success of such a flagship vote-winning policy from the mountaintops.

You also have to remember that a lot of the architects of the education tax voted for independent schools to be totally banned not so long ago. This would be a clear and immediate £4 billion hit to the education budget, yet they still voted for it. This has nothing to do with raising any revenue.

Taxing independent parents isn't going to filll any gap. FYI RR is cutting schools budget to pay for public services pay rises so things are only going to get even worse but yeh, blame us for that!!

I blame the Tories, tbf.

Fine but this isn't about Tories, it is about Labour taxing 1 specific form of education, an action which will most likely end up as a cost to the taxpayer!

If someone was really committed (or good at organising a crowd-sourced effort!) they could presumably check the accounts of each school, to see how much net VAT they paid.

And the number of children in each type of school is on record, along with the per-student government funding formula.

And councils would have to account for out-of-county taxis in a FOI request - could see how that changes.

Sure, it's not going to give the whole picture of lost employment in closed schools, reduced employment in patents who don't need to pay fees, worse SEN provision as the council continues to avoid extra EHCPs, lifelong lower income for students particularly badly affected (especially kids with SEN which is no longer met).

And it would take a lot of compiling.

It's something we need an economics think tank to take on, a few years in. Like the one in France who calculated that the wealth tax was costing the state billions and restricting GDP growth. France scrapped the tax after that came out.

Excellent logic 🙄. The reason you constantly tie yourself up in knots trying to justify education tax, is because it’s unjustifiable. It’s blatantly a spite act against children because their parents are successful and this doesn’t sit well with some people. It’s exactly this totally unhealthy crabs in a bucket attitude that pushes people into independent schools in the first place.

There it is, that snobby superior attitude that so many posters here try to hide. But it is there, it's always there.

Years long cuts to state schools is all about the Tories. Do you think things have got into the state they are in the state sector just since Labour came to power?

No-one is disputing that but this isn't a whataboutery thread about that! VAT isn't hypothecated and isn't going directly into schools. You think Labour are going to properly fund state schools?? Don't be so naive, they are reducing funding for schools to fund public sector payrises!
Attacking independent schools does nothing to improve state schools, all it does is increase the burden on the state.

Did you put a safety harness on before all those leaps? I was simply stating a fact that you can't blame Labour for the mess of the state sector but there seem to be many on here that want to blame Labour for everything.

In all fairness, I was replying to someone who is in favour of education tax.

Labour have inherited a mess from the Tories and are doing nothing to make any meaningful improvement to state education. As far as I can tell they are making it worse. That is 100% on Labour.

Yes they have inherited a humungous mess from the Tories and little in the way of funds to do anything about it so are resorting to shuffling deckchairs. That's the frame for all of this.

Instead, they're spending god knows how much on 4 KCs to defend a policy that may not make any money - and what money it does make is not even ring-fenced for education.

They know that it won’t make money but they don’t care. They are desperate not to lose this court case as it matters so much to them - nearly though not quite as much as Tony Blair’s hunting ban - and they will throw everything they’ve got at it, including the most expensive KCs.

@KendricksGin policies making it worse like VAT won't help the state sector.

That's why other many countries use the opposite.

No you were using whataboutery. No flying leaps needed.
Put very simply, taxing parents using independent schools won't help state schools.