90% of ICU patients admitted with COVID haven't been vaccinated.

[Desithebulldog]

Been listening to the news and they've said that 90% of the patients admitted to ICU with COVID haven't been vaccinated. For each patient admitted they are denying 10 other patients who need surgery their ICU beds. So currently (I'm sure there are more) there are 1,000 patients holding up 10,000 operations. I find this absolutely gobsmacking. Why, why, why would people not get vaccinated to help the NHS? They are on their knees and need all the help they can get. I know it's a personal choice but why are all the non-believers making it so hard for others to get a much needed operation? I just don't get it.

'The worst part of my job is calling patients to tell them their surgery is cancelled due to no ITU bed. These are not people who are having some routine minor surgery, they need ITU because they are due for major life saving surgery.They’ve planned their time off, they’ve isolated, they’ve been swabbed, they’ve had countless appointments/tests/pre ops and then they get me on the phone saying “sorry no go”.'

This is awful @WoodyGd.

I would really struggle to look after an unvaccinated person clogging up a bed in icu when other patients major cancer ops have to be cancelled. Yes fat people and smokers still get treatment when we know their lifestyle contributes to ill health but it isn't such a direct correlation as being an anti vaxxer is it.

@OatALot

We're a fat country who can't be arsed to exercise and drink far too much. This is just another example of people not taking responsibility for their own health and adding to the load, only this time it's ICU that's getting hit.

To be fair though some of the decisions the govt has made has contributed to this problem. Healthy coping mechanisms - exercise, being in nature, connecting with friends were made very difficult at certain points in the last 20 months, to be replaced with stay safe, stay at home, order takeaways, " all we're asking you to do is be safe on your sofa". People's mental health has plummeted and it's no wonder they self medicate with food and alcohol, rather than exercise, connection and fresh air.

What is being done to promote a healthier population?

@WoodyGd

I manage a surgical service across two hospital sites.

The worst part of my job is calling patients to tell them their surgery is cancelled due to no ITU bed. These are not people who are having some routine minor surgery, they need ITU because they are due for major life saving surgery.

They’ve planned their time off, they’ve isolated, they’ve been swabbed, they’ve had countless appointments/tests/pre ops and then they get me on the phone saying “sorry no go”.

The worst part is that you don’t know how it will go until the day before. There is a meeting first thing everyday to see if any patients can stepped down from ITU to a normal bed. If it’s a no then it’s a case of, ok there’s one bed, who gets it? We have specialities fighting each other for the chance to go ahead, pitting cancer against cancer or AAAs. Patients losing limbs because the bypass they need can’t be done because there isn’t a bed for them afterwards (might as well just take the limb once the leg is rotten enough).

All so some thicko can practice his or her right to not be vaccinated. It’s disgusting.

I already know I’ll have a cancellation this morning, it’s beyond bloody depressing

Surely all any 'vaccine hesitant' person has to do is listen to people like WoodyGd. Though I'm sure they'd come up with reasons why this isn't true.

My fecking (ex) yoga teacher (well yes) is posting Neil fucking Oliver vids off YouTube like he's the bloody Messiah. In the words of Mitch Benn, 'I've fucking had it with you'

I don’t remember a message about getting takeaways and we could always go out for exercise (unless isolating)

I don't know anyone, or know anyone who knows anyone, who has died of Covid.I do, however, know people who have died since March 2020 of things untreated because of Covid being the only thing that appears to matter.

What do you suggest? Shall we just stop treating people with Covid?

What a fabulous idea!! And how clever of you to think of that. [off to suggest that to Boris]

No doubt you're quite an expert in your field of medicine....

@EishetChayil

What happened to the special nightingale hospitals that were going to treat the covid patients so they dont clog up ITU?

There was no staff for them because many left due to Brexit and conditions and pay are such that being a HCP isn’t as attractive as it once was. There’s been warnings for years that there aren’t enough to replace those leaving but nothing done. ITU staff are very highly trained over years. Staff are off with covid. And it’s even worse now as the millions and millions of vaccines have to be given by someone…. I can’t actually believe they spent all that money on Nightingales and didn’t seem to put in any thought about how they could actually run them

What are you on about? Of course people cared about the NHS being underfunded. I certainly did. Which is why I didn't vote for this Government. Or the previous one. Along with millions of others. Did you?
Nope, I didn't vote for them either. I also care, having seen the fallout of the NHS through work, family and family way before covid came along.

Of course people have "given a toss" about the NHS. It's been up in the top three priority policies for most governments or shadow governments for the past 25 years. I can't think of an election campaign which hasn't riffed about the state of the NHS
So why is the service continuing to crumble? Riffing about it, isn't the same as making changes. It isn't about money being injected either, although some things could have been done like bursaries to entice people to qualify.

The people making excuses on here are depressing.
The anti vaxx movement is a scourge on society.
The NHS was on its knees already so help it out and get vaccinated.
Then don't vote Conservative.

"I don't know anyone, or know anyone who knows anyone, who has died of Covid.

I do, however, know people who have died since March 2020 of things untreated because of Covid being the only thing that appears to matter."

Lucky you @RonaLisa

I on the other hand spent much of last year signing death certificates at a hugely higher rate than I ever have done before - I'd estimate at least 10 times the usual rate - all covid.

“We're a fat country who can't be arsed to exercise and drink far too much. This is just another example of people not taking responsibility for their own health and adding to the load, only this time it's ICU that's getting hit.”
The thing is in a country with free healthcare people are more likely to just rely on the health system dealing with their poor choices. If you live somewhere where you have to pay a lot for healthcare and always pay 10 per cent yourself, then you are more incentivised to look after your body/health and value that health service. You are also more incentivised to only go to the doctor with serious issues and to sort minor issues out yourself.
It does not mean the concept of a free health service is wrong. Morally speaking, it is the best & most important leveller in society.
Unfortunately I do think we will need either mandatory vaccination or make some people pay for treatment somehow. Because our waiting lists are just too long. If someone needs a surgery due to excessive smoking or drinking they are just as entitled to a bed & surgery as someone who refused the vaccine and ends up in ICU. And what about all those poor people who lived perfectly healthy lives, worked hard and are dying due to delayed cancer treatments. I just do not think their operations should be postponed for ICU non vaccinated Covid patients. Perhaps doctors need more discretion.

@Neron

So why is the service continuing to crumble? Riffing about it, isn't the same as making changes. It isn't about money being injected either, although some things could have been done like bursaries to entice people to qualify.

I don't disagree with any of that... we should be taking a long, hard look at the way the NHS is structured and managed and certainly funding it better.

But none of that changes the fact that refusing to get vaccinated makes an underlying problem far worse than it needs to be. And its highly irritating when antivaxxers use this as a deflector shield to allow them to continue putting their "rights" above their responsibilities.

@GlomOfNit

loved that song - my DH will get a good laugh out of that too.

Thanks!

Which news OP?

This is not true is it?

@supermoonrising

I’ve heard conflicting information about who counts as “unvaccinated”. On the one had I’ve heard it claimed that “unvaccinated” means person has not received any dose of a Covid vaccine.

On the other hand I’ve also heard it claimed that “unvaccinated” means person who has not received both doses PLUS a 14 day period passing after the second dose. (ie because the term fully vaccinated has come to be understood as both doses + 15 days for vaccine to reach full strength). So according to this second claim, somebody who enters hospital/ICU one week after a second dose would be counted as “unvaccinated”.

Can anyone shed light on this?

The last figures I saw from one particular ICU, something like 1% of those admitted to ICU with covid had received both doses and 2% had received one dose and 97% were unvaccinated.

I think anti vaxxers should sign a form and refuse ICU treatment too . Keep them comfy on a ward with O2 and morphine, I mean surely if they don't want vaccines they won't want all those nasty meds and invasive treatment in ICU?!

It’s depressing to hear but short of other measures I don’t think anyone has been convinced on here to change their mind and get vaccinated

Maybe they have

@EmbarrassingHadrosaurus

Is there any additional information on the patients who are unvaccinated? How many of them are are CEV and ineligible for vaccination? Pregnant or post-partum women who've had a lot of conflicting advice even from health care professionals?

Some people have profound distrust of healthcare systems and need a lot of persuasion.

I've no idea of these people's circumstances or what lead them to be unvaccinated.

Yeah, but they don't need persuaded to take up an ICU bed, do they? Where's their distrust then?

@BoredZelda

who do you suggest has the time to mollycoddle these anti-vaxxers to persuade them they need to have the vaccine?

These aren’t “anti-vaxxers” they are people who are constantly let down by healthcare services and treated quite badly and have been for a very long time.

Your ignorance of it and attitude to it is a large part of the reason they don’t trust the service.

Sorry but we are in the middle of a pandemic and hundreds of thousands have died. If people can't see that a vaccine is for their own good as well as other people's then what can anyone do? I know a few people who haven't had the vaccine because they have been listening to conspiracies and these are people who access health care normally and have had other vaccines in the past, so don't call me ignorant as the people I know who have refused the vaccine are certainly not people who have 'constantly let down by healthcare services and treated quite badly and have been for a very long time'.

It is not always personal choice. I have tried several times to get my 20 year old and 16 year old with autism vaccinated. They refuse as they both have severe ld and autism. No one will force them and no one will take the time to come out to their home and spend the time on it. Consequently they could either of them end up in ICU. Stop judging. You have no idea of the personal circumstances of these poor people.

@MrsBerthaRochester

I would suggest that the person who blames it all on the minority of people who have decided not to have the vaccine are to blame for the current state of the Nhs rather than years of deliberate underfunding from a government with a very clear agenda to privatise our health service is in fact, the "thicko" When people lose their right to body automany it is always women who fair worse.

Minority??

@Railk

Ummm - yes - it is true. Have a read of this thread.

I'm a HCP also - and can say that yes - this is accurate.

@Lostinacloud

I would just be a bit wary of figures like these to be honest. Double vaccinated patients eligible for a booster are now being counted as unvaccinated in the stats so I’m not quite sure I can entirely believe headline figures like these. Patients less than 2 weeks post vaccination or booster are also included and there are some who argue that pre 14 days the immune system is temporarily lowered.

Totally agree, more scaremongering, none of the “figures” make sense, but support the narrative.

I'd just like to point out that my son is on the autistic spectrum and always faints when he has had to have blood taken or an injection of any sort.

He's had both jabs. Fainted the first time, but was able to lie down for the second one and didn't faint.

He obviously wasn't keen, but did it anyway.

@Neron

What are you on about? Of course people cared about the NHS being underfunded. I certainly did. Which is why I didn't vote for this Government. Or the previous one. Along with millions of others. Did you? Nope, I didn't vote for them either. I also care, having seen the fallout of the NHS through work, family and family way before covid came along.

Of course people have "given a toss" about the NHS. It's been up in the top three priority policies for most governments or shadow governments for the past 25 years. I can't think of an election campaign which hasn't riffed about the state of the NHS
So why is the service continuing to crumble? Riffing about it, isn't the same as making changes. It isn't about money being injected either, although some things could have been done like bursaries to entice people to qualify.

So if you cared about the NHS before, why did you make the claim that no one else gave a toss before, when that's patently untrue?

Just a deflection from the fact that people are making selfish, bad choices that are putting massive strain on a system that's already creaking.

In that Times article it actually states, across the 3 Trusts, 50 patients unvaccinated and 30 vaccinated so not 90%.
In the ONS stats I read it said the highest group of unvaccinated where those with other illnesses as they were concerned the vaccine would make them even sicker. I can understand their concern. I think that proportion has reduced now with good information to reassure them but still makes a up large % But it seems they are all avoiding ICU as I never read about them??