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90% of ICU patients admitted with COVID haven't been vaccinated.

999 replies

Desithebulldog · 06/12/2021 00:55

Been listening to the news and they've said that 90% of the patients admitted to ICU with COVID haven't been vaccinated. For each patient admitted they are denying 10 other patients who need surgery their ICU beds. So currently (I'm sure there are more) there are 1,000 patients holding up 10,000 operations. I find this absolutely gobsmacking. Why, why, why would people not get vaccinated to help the NHS? They are on their knees and need all the help they can get. I know it's a personal choice but why are all the non-believers making it so hard for others to get a much needed operation? I just don't get it.

OP posts:
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pianolessons1 · 06/12/2021 09:36

@cansu

It is not always personal choice. I have tried several times to get my 20 year old and 16 year old with autism vaccinated. They refuse as they both have severe ld and autism. No one will force them and no one will take the time to come out to their home and spend the time on it. Consequently they could either of them end up in ICU. Stop judging. You have no idea of the personal circumstances of these poor people.
Huge sympathy for you - but if the hordes of other unvaccinated people had their vaccine, there would be better herd immunity to protect your children, who have a genuine reason not to have it. Similar to low herd immunity threatening those kids who genuinely can't have their MMR, because of all the idiot anti vaxxers who didn't give it to their kids.
violetskiss · 06/12/2021 09:39

I am ferociously pro-vax and very in favour of laws like they’ve just brought in in Germany, BUT saying “why won’t people get vaccinated to protect the NHS” is so obtuse.

People are SO sick of the narrative that we are supposed to be protecting the NHS. The NHS is supposed to protect us for gods sake. No one who hasn’t been vaccinated yet is going to be convinced by that rancid rhetoric.

thepeopleversuswork · 06/12/2021 09:39

@cansu

It is not always personal choice. I have tried several times to get my 20 year old and 16 year old with autism vaccinated. They refuse as they both have severe ld and autism. No one will force them and no one will take the time to come out to their home and spend the time on it. Consequently they could either of them end up in ICU. Stop judging. You have no idea of the personal circumstances of these poor people.
There are people for whom its medically dangerous or otherwise very challenging. And sympathy and compassion is due to these people.

But these are a small minority. The vast majority of the unvaccinated are the "my body my choice" types. And these are the people whom NHS workers are rightly directly their ire at.

MarshaBradyo · 06/12/2021 09:42

@cansu

It is not always personal choice. I have tried several times to get my 20 year old and 16 year old with autism vaccinated. They refuse as they both have severe ld and autism. No one will force them and no one will take the time to come out to their home and spend the time on it. Consequently they could either of them end up in ICU. Stop judging. You have no idea of the personal circumstances of these poor people.
You are right not to force your dc and I really feel for you but I agree with pp that the more people who can get vaccinated that do the better for you all too.

Try not to feel judged though if you can. People won’t post it every time but they don’t mean in your situation.

Pinksloth · 06/12/2021 09:43

Totally agree, more scaremongering, none of the “figures” make sense, but support the narrative

It's not my narrative, though, or even Boris Johnson's. It's the BMA's and the Critical Care Nurses Association inews.co.uk/news/health/doctors-incredibly-frustrated-unvaccinated-covid-patients-delaying-nhs-operations-1336507. But I guess you'd say that they're just scaremongering, too, rather than actually reporting the evidence from scientific studies as well as anecdotally from their members.

But some of you would rather believe FB or Twitter. Okay then.

BitterPeach · 06/12/2021 09:44

fullfact.org/health/economist-vaccination-status/

90% of those hospitalised with Covid-19 are unvaccinated - this used to be true but it seems to be nearer 35% now. Most people in hospital now have had 2 doses.

supermoonrising · 06/12/2021 09:47

Of course people have "given a toss" about the NHS. It's been up in the top three priority policies for most governments or shadow governments for the past 25 years. I can't think of an election campaign which hasn't riffed about the state of the NHS

True, but let’s be honest. The only reason the Tories don’t put an end to a universal free at point of use health service in their manifesto is because they know it would result in a Labour government. Ideologically, the majority of Tories are opposed to it. They’d probably prefer something more similar to Ireland’s half/half system.
One of the many problems with our FPTP electoral system is that the parties don’t even say what they honestly believe, let alone try to persuade people to follow their instincts. So in many crucial issues you end up with governments merely doing what they think the public probably want them to do.

ichundich · 06/12/2021 09:47

@Neron

I’d like to ask unvaccinated people, who have chosen not to have the vaccination how they’d feel about taking up an ICU bed and potentially preventing 10 lifesaving operations? Causing others to potential death or worsening outcomes Have you ever wanted to ask this question of anyone else, at any other time, for any decision that they took which lands them in hospital? Or just this one vaccination?

The NHS has been fucked for years. It's nothing to do with unvaccinated people, but absolutely to do with the government and their refusal to sort it out, claiming no money. Amazing when you think of the billions they could magic into existence, for their friends incompetent tracking system.

Then do explain why countries with a much better funded healthcare system than the NHS are currently also really struggling under the strain of unvaccinated people filling up ICU beds (e.g. Germany)?
Carpetsareforflying · 06/12/2021 09:48

The NHS is on its knees because it's underfunded and has been for years. It's worse because of COVID, of course it is, but it was already broken. Our local hospitals are overwhelmed every single winter, ambulances queueing to get in to a and e. 3+ hour waits for an emergency ambulances. I have a child with complex health needs and I don't even call 111 or 999 anymore. We get in the car and go to the hospital.

Pyewackect · 06/12/2021 09:49

@howdiditcometothis666

In that Times article it actually states, across the 3 Trusts, 50 patients unvaccinated and 30 vaccinated so not 90%. In the ONS stats I read it said the highest group of unvaccinated where those with other illnesses as they were concerned the vaccine would make them even sicker. I can understand their concern. I think that proportion has reduced now with good information to reassure them but still makes a up large % But it seems they are all avoiding ICU as I never read about them??
I work in ICU and 90% of patients are unvaccinated but hey, what would I know !.
leafygarden42 · 06/12/2021 09:50

Oh dear - so much bollocks being talked on this thread.

I'm gonna go - enjoy the video!

Pinksloth · 06/12/2021 09:50

@BitterPeach

fullfact.org/health/economist-vaccination-status/

90% of those hospitalised with Covid-19 are unvaccinated - this used to be true but it seems to be nearer 35% now. Most people in hospital now have had 2 doses.

That article is about hospitalisation, but what about ICU beds, according to this professor, the ICU beds are being taken up by the unvaccinated

www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/23/covid-patients-in-icu-now-almost-all-unvaccinated-says-oxford-scientist

Tranquilitybasehotelandcasino · 06/12/2021 09:50

Do people not understand that a lot of the other health issues that puts people in need of an ICU bed might also be as a result of poor/selfish decisions too? Lots of research to say that cancers can be prevented by health diets and looking after yourself or at least the risk lessened. Cardiovascular diseases can also be as a result of poor lifestyle choices. Yet we’re ok to treat them when they need an ICU bed. My mother in law was double jabbed and died of covid. ICU staff presumably would have felt she deserved their help and bed but she had been severely overweight all her life and a heavy smoker for a lot fo years. She developed kidney failure, diabetes and other issues as a result of her poor choices and ultimately, this is what put her in ICU, not just the COVID.

What I think is that we’ve treated people for years when they perhaps didn’t deserve it, when they’ve perhaps made bad decisions that caused their poor health. Health professionals are supposed to care and if you cannot just care without judgement, maybe you’re in the wrong profession.

It’s easy to think someone deserves an ICU bed for cancer treatment but if they’re morbidly obese and have abused their body, do they really deserve it more than the unvaccinated? The unvaccinated aren’t all selfish people that are just being awkward, some are genuinely scared of the vaccine and the effect it might have on their health. Yet it’s easier to see them as just stubborn and accuse them of causing other innocent people to die but what a simplistic, self righteous attitude to have.

I don’t work in healthcare (although I have family that do) but I work with people that have lots of issues and cause themselves lots of other issues because of bad decisions. Do I look down on them? No! I understand that people are complex and make bad/wrong choices for a whole host of reasons, even if it sometimes looks like a simple case of stupidity or them being selfish.

BoredZelda · 06/12/2021 09:51

Young pregnant women who don't want the vaccines, COVID and flu and whooping cough, and who don't want the MMR for their children, but who are happy to have a cesarian and any other form of treatment. It's just the vaccines they don't trust.

Perhaps widen your mind beyond your little world.

Neron · 06/12/2021 09:52

So if you cared about the NHS before, why did you make the claim that no one else gave a toss before, when that's patently untrue?
So I'll change my wording, as there are a couple of people here that cared previously. Aside from political parties who murmur about it, yet do nothing.

Just a deflection from the fact that people are making selfish, bad choices that are putting massive strain on a system that's already creaking.
You mean selfish choices like drugs, alcohol, obesity, procreation? No, these are not contagious, but all things that stress the system way before now.

Where was all the outraged posters, creating thread upon thread, about the NHS and the difficulties it faced before now. Why have there been no threads imploring people to stop being selfish and do the right thing to 'save the NHS'.

Iggly · 06/12/2021 09:52

Young pregnant women who don't want the vaccines, COVID and flu and whooping cough, and who don't want the MMR for their children, but who are happy to have a cesarian and any other form of treatment. It's just the vaccines they don't trust

Pregnant women were first told that covid vaccines weren’t for them.

Tittyfilarious81 · 06/12/2021 09:52

The assumptions on here about people against having this vaccine are awful I've seen it said that they are thick or listen to Facebook or Twitter instead of science , what about the thousands of NHS staff who sent vaccinated including some doctors are they tarred with the same brush ? There are doctors and scientists with very different views on the vaccine about who should need to be vaccinated even the WHO have said that boosters should not be given to healthy adults and children whilst some countries have hardly been able to vaccinate their elderly and vulnerable . A different view on being vaccinated doesn't make you thick

PurpleIndigoViolet · 06/12/2021 09:54

I find it frustrating that those people who have chosen not to get vaccinated because the vaccine is too new and they want to ‘wait and see’ are then willing to be treated in hospital for covid.

Sorely, seeing as covid has existed for less than two years being treated for it is just as ‘experimental’ as receiving a covid vaccine. But it seems as though their hesitancy goes out the window when they need hospitalisation/ICU. Funny that.

SueSaid · 06/12/2021 09:54

'Do people not understand that a lot of the other health issues that puts people in need of an ICU bed might also be as a result of poor/selfish decisions too?'

🙄

As I said earlier yes being fat or a smoker will contribute to ill health but it isn't always a direct cause of ICU admission like being an anti vaxxer is.

'It’s easy to think someone deserves an ICU bed for cancer treatment but if they’re morbidly obese and have abused their body, do they really deserve it more than the unvaccinated'

Yes they do. I bet every single morbidly obese person would have a vaccine if it prevented serious illness.

No ICU for vaccine refusers is my opinion. I know it sounds a bit like North Korea but there you go

Ozanj · 06/12/2021 09:54

@cansu

It is not always personal choice. I have tried several times to get my 20 year old and 16 year old with autism vaccinated. They refuse as they both have severe ld and autism. No one will force them and no one will take the time to come out to their home and spend the time on it. Consequently they could either of them end up in ICU. Stop judging. You have no idea of the personal circumstances of these poor people.
GPs have the funding to go to people’s homes to deliver the vaccine. It may be a matter of calling all of your local GPs to see which ones are using the funds they received appropriately. T
thepeopleversuswork · 06/12/2021 09:56

People talking about obesity, alcoholism smoking etc are missing the point that these diseases only affect the sufferer and their family -- not other people.

The whole point about refusing to be vaccinated is that it isn't only your body which you're damaging. It's other people's bodies and particularly the bodies of the people who are treating you.

bumbleymummy · 06/12/2021 09:57

I think this one got called out pretty quick - based on ‘latest available figures’ which were July.

SLH2003 · 06/12/2021 09:58

@supermoonrising

I’ve heard conflicting information about who counts as “unvaccinated”. On the one had I’ve heard it claimed that “unvaccinated” means person has not received any dose of a Covid vaccine. On the other hand I’ve also heard it claimed that “unvaccinated” means person who has not received both doses PLUS a 14 day period passing after the second dose. (ie because the term fully vaccinated has come to be understood as both doses + 15 days for vaccine to reach full strength). So according to this second claim, somebody who enters hospital/ICU one week after a second dose would be counted as “unvaccinated”. Can anyone shed light?
Youll have to send over the tik tok where you got this info and I can check it out.
EnidSpyton · 06/12/2021 09:58

It makes me very concerned to read the number of 'healthcare workers' on here (because obviously anyone on the internet can say they're whoever they like) - saying that they have no sympathy/compassion etc for unvaccinated patients.

Look, most people in this country have self inflicted illness. The biggest cost to the NHS is Type 2 Diabetes, which costs billions every year. What causes type 2 diabetes? Obesity. What causes obesity? People eating too much and not exercising enough. It has devastating effects on the body. Interestingly enough, it is also one of the most significant risk factors for severe covid complications.

The second biggest cost to the NHS is heart disease. What causes heart disease? As above - obesity and smoking.

What's the biggest cancer killer? Lung cancer. What causes lung cancer? Smoking.

The NHS is 'on its knees' (good lord how I hate this phrase) and has been for decades because we are an ageing, unhealthy population. We live stressful lives in a society fuelled by capitalism, where living costs outstrip wages, the cheapest food is the unhealthiest, and access to safe outdoor spaces to exercise for many people is limited. Successive governments have stripped funding for early years support for families in need, for apprentices and training schemes, for council and lower income housing schemes, and so on and so forth. This has all led to increased housing insecurity, increased job insecurity, increased poverty and increased poor health.

Add to this the lack of investment in the NHS, the lack of investment in the training of nurses and doctors, and the choice to sever our country from the EU, decimating our supply of overseas trained health professionals, and we're in a situation where we have an unhealthy population with not enough health provision to care for them.

There is a huge element of personal responsibility when it comes to health, but there is also a huge element of governmental and societal responsibility in creating the right environmental, social and economic conditions for people to be able to make the best decisions for themselves.

The government wants us to start pointing fingers at one another. It's all about divide and conquer. The more we blame one another, the less we look to them.

Don't buy into this narrative. Everyone has the right to choose what is put into their bodies. I am vaccinated but I will fight without ceasing for people's right to not have the vaccine if - for whatever reason - they don't feel safe having it injected into their bodies. We are not a fascist society. I don't want to live in a country where people are forced to have medical treatment they don't want. If that means they block an ICU bed, then so be it. Most other people in ICU will also be in there for self inflicted reasons. The minute we start placing a hierarchy of need based on who has the moral 'right' to treatment over someone else - and let's remember that every person's definition of that 'right' will be based on their own set of biases and assumptions - this can never be an objective process - we're going down a very slippery slope as a society indeed.

Let's not forget - we're not in this position because of any decision any individual sitting in a hospital bed has made. We're here because successive governments over successive years have placed their own ambition over the needs of the people they supposedly serve. It is these people who need to be held to account, not the people suffering in hospital, for whom I will always have compassion, because they are humans who are suffering. It disturbs me that so many of us - including people supposedly treating these people in their hour of need - seem to have forgotten that.

bumbleymummy · 06/12/2021 09:59

“By this stage we all know someone, or know someone who knows someone, who has died of Covid. There's no excuse for thinking 'Oh, it's just like a mild case of flu'.”

I don’t. Anyone I know who has had it has had it mildly/asymptomatically and just picked up because they had to test for work/close contact etc.

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