90% of ICU patients admitted with COVID haven't been vaccinated.

[Desithebulldog]

Been listening to the news and they've said that 90% of the patients admitted to ICU with COVID haven't been vaccinated. For each patient admitted they are denying 10 other patients who need surgery their ICU beds. So currently (I'm sure there are more) there are 1,000 patients holding up 10,000 operations. I find this absolutely gobsmacking. Why, why, why would people not get vaccinated to help the NHS? They are on their knees and need all the help they can get. I know it's a personal choice but why are all the non-believers making it so hard for others to get a much needed operation? I just don't get it.

Do you have another source for that? Everything I’ve read, including their government health website says 20 weeks.

@RampantIvy

putting something in my body as a condition to work or access services goes against everything I believe in

That has nothing to do with being a Christian. All the Christians I know are double vaccinated, and loads of atheists are anti vaccination to access services. Please stop using being a Christian as a reason not to get vaccinated. It isn't a logical argument.

Every single religious person I know is vaccinated. The overwhelming majority of mainstream faith leaders strongly encourage it.

@1dayatatime it makes perfect sense. The older probably vaccinated people are not suitable candidates for ICU so they either fight it or die.
The younger ones are the ones in ICU for several weeks at a time. It would appear there is a significant proportion unvaccinated.
There is data but only going back to May to July which breaks down vaccinated verses non vaccinated by age and at that time it was about 70% unvaccinated and 30% vaccinated.
Hopefully thr next report will show updated figures.

[quote Unimpressed2021]@bumbleymummy nope full term

righttolife.org.uk/news/nz-pm-rushes-worlds-most-extreme-abortion-law-into-law-while-country-distracted-with-pandemic[/quote]
That seems like a very biased source link.

Try this one: www.familyplanning.org.nz/advice/abortion/abortion-law

If you can't be bothered to read it:

*Up to and including 20 weeks of a pregnancy, a qualified health practitioner can provide an abortion to a pregnant person.

After 20 weeks of pregnancy, a qualified health practitioner may only provide abortion services to a pregnant person if the health practitioner believes the abortion is clinically appropriate in the circumstances. The health practitioner must consult with at least one other health practitioner and consider: legal, professional, and ethical standards; the pregnant person’s physical health, mental health and overall well-being, and the gestational age of the foetus.*

So, basically, over 20 weeks if medically necessary.

@BritWifeInUSA and others who I have seen make similar arguments: "And you would be in favor of this approach for smokers, drinkers, people who eat junk food and are overweight, people who go rock climbing or mountaineering and end up being rescued with frostbite or broken limbs? After all, they knew the risks… You could say the same about people who fall from ladders who have car crashes. The list could go on and on."

As it happens, I think that alcohol and junk food should be much more tightly regulated, but I don't think your examples are comparable because none of these are things which risk infecting someone else. These are (crudely put), risks to the individual, whereas somebody who doesn't want to get vaccinated but wants to be out among other people is putting other people at risk too.

@bumbleymummy yea looked on NZ website there is provision for abortion over 20 weeks,
legislation.govt.nz/bill/government/2019/0164/latest/LMS237550.html

But health practitioner must deem it clinically appropriate.....very grey area in my opion.

@AnotherOneWithNoGoodName that I will read that too, I just looked at bill on gov website as well

@AnotherOneWithNoGoodName I really don't care what main stream Christian Churches say, mean how many priests have been outed as abusers? Or Nuns? (Look at actions in Ireland). I follow what Bible says and what God tells me through my heart and mind. I don't just blindly follow what the pope who has said some morally questionable things or any other religious leader says. But again funny how the only point people are attacking is my religious beliefs, non of the other valid points...

[quote Unimpressed2021]@AnotherOneWithNoGoodName I really don't care what main stream Christian Churches say, mean how many priests have been outed as abusers? Or Nuns? (Look at actions in Ireland). I follow what Bible says and what God tells me through my heart and mind. I don't just blindly follow what the pope who has said some morally questionable things or any other religious leader says. But again funny how the only point people are attacking is my religious beliefs, non of the other valid points...[/quote]
Well you can not claim that it's Christianity stopping you being vaccinated when the vast majority of Christian sects are encouraging it. Maybe it's your own personal religious interpretation, or personal belief, or the belief of a particular sect you are a member of, but it's disingenuous to imply it's a Christian belief because that's patently not true.

@AnotherOneWithNoGoodName actually I can, I am a Christian and as a Christian vaccine + vaccine passports + no jab no job s screams Book of Revelation, and there are Orthodox Churches that don't support it rather leave it to personal choice. But sure keep attacking faith

Me me me and my riiiiights, Bill Gates and 5G, it only kills old unhealthy people and I’m super fit, I’ve done my RESEARCH, blah blah

Yup. I know someone like this, not quite at the 5g level of covidiocy yet but probably will be soon. This same person believes covid exists, but, unvaccinated, has the gall to scream and shout at people in shops for not wearing masks, getting too close and complains that the government isn't doing enough to stop the spread. But also thinks European country's with mandates are taking away peoples "rights and freedoms"

Pointing out that succesful vaccine programmes have given people here a relative amount of freedom over the summer, helped the NHS and the economy doesn't seem to compute

One question I like to ask is "you won't take the vaccine but are you glad so many others have?" Because you know deep down they are glad, happy to let others do it, but they have sooo much trouble admitting it not just to you, but to themselves

[quote Unimpressed2021]@AnotherOneWithNoGoodName actually I can, I am a Christian and as a Christian vaccine + vaccine passports + no jab no job s screams Book of Revelation, and there are Orthodox Churches that don't support it rather leave it to personal choice. But sure keep attacking faith[/quote]
Lol nobody is attacking faith. Again the vast majority of Christians and Christian sects are pro-vaccine. Obviously, if your particular sect/religious beliefs are not, thats fine, but again, it's a falsehood to say it's a mainstream or popular Christian belief. Nobody has attacked faith. You are perfectly entitled to believe what you like, as we all are.

Like I pointed out in first post, vaccine on its own i have no problem with it's all the baggage (hate, bullying, threats, passports to go out, no job without jab) that goes with it that pushes it over line, I saw segregation in South Africa and what it does it doesn't end well. If it was a case here is vaccine go get it or don't then I may feel differently not sure. But the fact everyone is avoiding genuine feelings and not addressing them, rather bullying, threatening and so on. Just makes me see it as evil its bring out worst in people. I mean in this thread there are actual health care professionals advocating cutting off unvaccinated from health care...to be fair you couldn't drag me to one now anyways after experiences with son. And actually I am OK with that give me back the portion of my taxes that goes to NHS...which is a shame I used to believe in NHS and trust those working in it.

If you really wanted people to trust the vaccine remove the indemnity protecting pharmaceutical companies....I mean Pfizer got fined $2.3billion for hiding trial data and bribing doctors... then there was the illegal drug trial in Nigeria that killed 10 out of 200 kids....now they are trying to prevent publication of data for 55 years....

Trust is earned...

I've seen you posting these Covid denialist opinions all over the Covid boards.

So have I.

Claiming to be a doctor in a context of discussing medical care, care rationing, etc, obviously carries an implication of being a medical doctor, and you know that as well as I do. This isn't an academia board. hmm

I am somewhat stunned to learn you have a Msc and a PhD, bumbles - but it clearly was not in any field of science relative to the topic of Covid, or indeed the human body - as you have always struck me as the sort of person who would most probably dot their I's with a large circle or possibly a love heart. As an anti-vaxxer, who like all antivaxxers, is hurt and offended at being called an anti-vaxxer, you have a 20 year history of posting quite insistently against (just questioning, just being discerning) all manner of vaccines.

I don't care what vaccines you personally have or approve of in children, but I do care about the vast mountains of misinformation on all manner of things you blithely spread on the coronavirus board - no doubt influencing the frightened, the unsure, and the less-informed to make decisions they may later regret.

I don't understand this argument that because vaccine immunity, like natural immunity, wanes, theres no point having the vaccine

It's like refusing to change bald tires or worn brakes on a car because cars with good tires and brakes can also cause accidents

You’re completely right @Flaxmeadow. I can only put it down to cult like behaviour. Rather than admit fault, and accept a sensible argument - cultists get even worse and come up with increasingly skewed arguments to support their ‘view’.

Yesterday, I defriended a long term friend of mine on Facebook because she posted anti vaxx material. I feel pretty sad about it because we were really good friends. She smokes, drinks, has taken illegal substances - but is vehemently anti-vaxx. While I think she is entitled to her view, I think spreading misinformation online is another level. It’s persuading others to make a harmful choice, when the overwhelming evidence of medical professionals worldwide is to get vaccinated. I wanted to reply to her post - to point out the incredible success of the HPV vaccine in minimising a cancer that was previously pretty common.

If people didn’t take the vaccine - if uptake was low because people were left to their own devices with no persuasion - what would the alternative be? An unfathomably high death toll, an NHS that has collapsed and cannot provide even the most basic services. Why do people want this? Is it survival if the fittest? Do you want only the healthy and those with strong immune systems to survive? Do you want the vulnerable dead?

@SingItToWinIt I probably wasn't very clear, we were talking about new policies, not existing ones, the people buying are young and first time buyers so this is the first time they have looked at life insurance, other than the workplace death in service benefit, which for most new home owners wouldn't cover their mortgage.

Why would anyone care what the Orthodox Church has to say about the vaccine? It’s not like they are a known for their medical research.

@ChardonnaysPetDragon

Why would anyone care what the Orthodox Church has to say about the vaccine? It’s not like they are a known for their medical research.

*@ChardonnaysPetDragon it's in the last book of Bible.

Access to services?

@milkyaqua

I've seen you posting these Covid denialist opinions all over the Covid boards.

So have I.

Claiming to be a doctor in a context of discussing medical care, care rationing, etc, obviously carries an implication of being a medical doctor, and you know that as well as I do. This isn't an academia board. hmm

I am somewhat stunned to learn you have a Msc and a PhD, bumbles - but it clearly was not in any field of science relative to the topic of Covid, or indeed the human body - as you have always struck me as the sort of person who would most probably dot their I's with a large circle or possibly a love heart. As an anti-vaxxer, who like all antivaxxers, is hurt and offended at being called an anti-vaxxer, you have a 20 year history of posting quite insistently against (just questioning, just being discerning) all manner of vaccines.

I don't care what vaccines you personally have or approve of in children, but I do care about the vast mountains of misinformation on all manner of things you blithely spread on the coronavirus board - no doubt influencing the frightened, the unsure, and the less-informed to make decisions they may later regret.

In my opinion this post is everything that's wrong with social media. @milkyaqua - Instead of making direct personal attacks on somebody why don't you address the point you are trying to make instead & provide evidence of this supposed 'mountain of misinformation' ?

The main source of misinformation on this thread in fact appears to have come from the pro-vax contingency with their mad use of out of date figures like the 90% in the original post! It's amazing how this misinformation never gets removed by the moderators though.

@Bumbleymummy - Please don't feel bad or stop posting. I love your posts, they are always reasonable, balanced & factual. The main reason other posters want to shut you down like this is because they can't actually win an argument with you by any other means. Have a lovely day!

3. As a Christian there is NO way I will put anything in my body as a condition of access to services or jobs (not talking 1 Job ie surgeons but wide scale)

Where in the bible does it say thou shalt not have a Covid vaccination?

Why dont they reopen the nightingale hospitals? Were they ever used to begin with?

No they were never used and never could be. There was no one to staff them. They were a PR exercise.

They were used, although not to anything like their full capacity. Some were used for treating less ill covid patients and for rehab, some were used to treat non-covid patients to free up hospital beds for patients who were more ill.

I Find those who are accepting mandates and vaccine coercion to be more ‘cultish’. There’s often no grey areas and definitely no questioning of anything. Just submission and compliance.

I find @bumbleymummy opens up debate by raising questions and showing another point of view which is refreshing. Please keep posting as there needs to be some balance in this sea of madness.

One example, they had a whole article last week by a Dr who said most ICU patients were unvaccinated and a large part of the article described a poor 35 year old unvaccinated cancer patient suffering terribly in ICU from... pneumonia not COVID at all.

You do know, @icedpuddles that, particularly for patients who reach ICU, covid regularly becomes pneumonia? And did it occur to you that perhaps the ICU doctor who wrote the article in question knew more about her patient than you did?