90% of ICU patients admitted with COVID haven't been vaccinated.

[Desithebulldog]

Been listening to the news and they've said that 90% of the patients admitted to ICU with COVID haven't been vaccinated. For each patient admitted they are denying 10 other patients who need surgery their ICU beds. So currently (I'm sure there are more) there are 1,000 patients holding up 10,000 operations. I find this absolutely gobsmacking. Why, why, why would people not get vaccinated to help the NHS? They are on their knees and need all the help they can get. I know it's a personal choice but why are all the non-believers making it so hard for others to get a much needed operation? I just don't get it.

@bumbleymummy, not a high risk category, but a category that plans to work for a living. In an industry that doesn't offer life time job security, and where the work is high intensity for the contract's duration of a few weeks. To be followed quickly by another very similar.

So you think it is ‘common sense’ for someone who has been infected and has immunity (that is recognised in some countries for 12 months so far) to have two doses of a vaccine as well just so they can get a job? Interesting. Most countries accept vaccination OR proof of previous infection within a certain time period as proof of immunity so l don’t think that policy is ‘common sense’ at all tbh.

@ichundich

"There is no flu pandemic. The last one was over 100 years ago. "

++++

Well that is apart from the Asian Flu of 1957 /58 that killed 1 to 4 million people worldwide or the Hong Kong Flu of 1968 /69 that also killed 1 to 4 million or the Russian Flu of 1977 that killed 0.7 million.

For context Covid has so far caused 5 million deaths with the world population today is 7.9 billion today compared to around 3 billion in 1957 and 3.5 billion in 1968, which would mean that the deaths in 1957 and 1968 pandemics would today be between 3 and 10 million.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Influenza_pandemic

But hey don't let a lack of historical knowledge get in the way of your narrative.

[quote bumbleymummy]@XingMing well certainly if you’re in a higher risk group then a vaccine that can reduce your risk is a great idea. If someone is already low risk and is happy with that risk and/or have already had the virus, they may think differently.[/quote]
There have been plenty of supposedly low risk people who have died or been left severely disabled.

Would life insurance pay out if you are able to have a vaccine and chose not to, if you subsequently died of covid? Most of us thought not, what do others think?

How is this even a question 🙄 Of course they would, unless it was specifically written into their exclusions...which it's not.

Anyone who thinks it should be wants to give their head a wobble because if insurers thought that kind of shit would pass then the next step would be a claim being denied because you had a heart attack and were fat.

@octoegg

"https://fullfact.org/health/economist-vaccination-status/?s=09

This link seems to be talking about hospitalisations, not ICU patients in particular though (not that I know the data for the latter; just pointing it out)"

++++

Therein lies the debate. There is a fact check available that shows 70% of those hospitalised and who die of Covid have been vaccinated. But this is only logical given that 83% of the UK has been vaccinated and over 90% vaccinated for the over 80's that make the majority of deaths.

There is clear transparent and open data available and fact checks to show that vaccination makes a big difference on your chances of a severe reaction, hospitalisation or death from Covid.

What there is not available is data on what percentage of patients in ICU / ITU suffering from Covid are unvaccinated. Instead we have reports from various doctors / medical officials around the world stating that in their particular hospital 90 to 95% of patients in ICU are unvaccinated.

Now I am sure that vaccination status makes a big difference to your chances of being in ICU, but the 90 to 95% figure simply doesn't add up.

It would mean that 70%of patients hospitalised with Covid are vaccinated and 30% unvaccinated. However this then radically goes down for ICU to 5 to 10% vaccinated. But it then radically goes back up again for deaths with 70% vaccinated. This makes no sense at all and casts major doubt on the 90 to 95% in ICU are unvaccinated claim.

[quote 1dayatatime]@ichundich

"There is no flu pandemic. The last one was over 100 years ago. "

++++

Well that is apart from the Asian Flu of 1957 /58 that killed 1 to 4 million people worldwide or the Hong Kong Flu of 1968 /69 that also killed 1 to 4 million or the Russian Flu of 1977 that killed 0.7 million.

For context Covid has so far caused 5 million deaths with the world population today is 7.9 billion today compared to around 3 billion in 1957 and 3.5 billion in 1968, which would mean that the deaths in 1957 and 1968 pandemics would today be between 3 and 10 million.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Influenza_pandemic

But hey don't let a lack of historical knowledge get in the way of your narrative.[/quote]
And what narrative is this? That vaccines help to slow / stop pandemics, even if they are not 100% effective?

As someone who is unvaccinated let me say the reasons before anyone gets on their high horse.

1. How many drugs/vaccines have been recalled due to serious issues, sometimes years after.

Primidos? (Evidence destroyed by MHRA predecessor Sky documentary Primidos Bitter Pill) Thalidomide? Pandemrix? Polio OPV vaccine has been know to cause polio in rare cases but it happens.

1. How many times have pharmaceutical companies been fined for fudging trial data and bribing officials?
2. As a Christian there is NO way I will put anything in my body as a condition of access to services or jobs (not talking 1 Job ie surgeons but wide scale)
3. Having seen how both sides are treating each other just reminds me of the aparthied I saw in South Africa and I want no part of it.
4. The attitude and contempt people exercising choice of body autonomy by HCP is staggering and just reminds me when NHS nearly killed my 1 year old after surgery which we felt was to early due to his low percentile but we were pushed into it, needless to say he got a post op infection we took him back to hospital 3 times in 2 days to be told give him calpol then sent home no blood tests (seen by 2 doctors first 2 times, on 3rd by his surgeon) he had all symptoms high temp, projectile vomiting and delirium. 3rd visit when bandages came off area was bright red surgeon said its just swollen from surgery when we said we were going to get second opion from GP they relented and gave us cream...told to feed him, which we did while nurse was in room, and he projectile vomited on her (I felt bad) she got him admitted, 5 days on IV antibodics and blood tests show borderline sepsis. When I got copy of notes some of them were dated days after and some things were left out. So no I DON'T trust NHS.
5. The contempt people are showing towards people who choose not to be vaccinated has actually had negative effect, I removed myself from living donor and donor reg, quite simply if you want to segregate me for a choice then it's my choice not to donate anymore which is sad considering I am rare blood group.
6. Once you surrender to a policy of a jab every 3 months or you get cut off..what comes next?

Want me to reconsider simple.

1. Remove indemnity for pharma companies as they do have a history of lying and manipulating data.
2. Enshrine in law that there will never be no jab no job countrywide policy and no vaccine passports.
3. Be open and transparent, have open debates on TV to educate people so people can see honesty, by censoring, name calling and threatening your just giving image you have something to hide or are a bully.
4. Deal with underlining cause of NHS issues, funding, paid education with contract times to work for NHS or pay back money with interest. Re introduce bursaries for nurses (in my view they deserve free uni)
5. Maybe hold government to account..I mean how many times have we be told we can't do something but Boris and his cronies do it? Or give billions to mates for projects that would never have worked?

@Unimpressed2021

how many vaccines have been recalled?

Thalidomide wasn't a vaccine. We learned from that. Using thalidomide as an anti vaxx argument is irrelevant.

What has being a Christian to do with anything?

What’s being Christian has to do with putting things in your body and access to services?

@ichundich

The narrative that states that the last flu pandemic was over 100 years ago which isn't true or that flu is no where near as deadly as Covid which history has shown it can be.

Given my post was correcting historical inaccuracies then I am not entirely clear why you reference that Covid vaccines reduce deaths, despite it being true and which is backed up by open data.

Or was this an attempt to portray me as some kind of "anti vaxxer / Covid denialist" simply because I pointed out your ignorance of history?

@ivykaty44 a number actually depending how far you go back the swine flu vaccine was recalled/withdrawn.

www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/concerns/concerns-history.html

@RampantIvy it many not have been but it still went through approval goes to argument regulators get it wrong and frequently.

Been a Christian putting something in my body as a condition to work or access services goes against everything I believe in and I know what your thinking, do I believe it is mark of beast, I don't know but it is certainly very close and possibly preparing people for what is to come given its world wide and given how much division and hate this is causing just reinforces my thoughts. Will I tell someone else to take it or not, no that is their choice.

I notice people are ignoring points about how corrupt pharma is and also my experiences with NHS.

@ChardonnaysPetDragon it's in the last book of Bible.

@platax. Sure. There are plenty of young/healthy people that die from flu every year too. We do let people make up their own minds about having the flu vaccine though and don’t suggest that they should be denied treatment if they don’t have it.

@bumbleymummy I hope you feel somewhat responsible for all the nonsense you are spouting across all threads without any scientific basis and maybe feel some kind of remorse if your bs affects someone’s life in the future.

[quote 1dayatatime]@octoegg

"https://fullfact.org/health/economist-vaccination-status/?s=09

This link seems to be talking about hospitalisations, not ICU patients in particular though (not that I know the data for the latter; just pointing it out)"

++++

Therein lies the debate. There is a fact check available that shows 70% of those hospitalised and who die of Covid have been vaccinated. But this is only logical given that 83% of the UK has been vaccinated and over 90% vaccinated for the over 80's that make the majority of deaths.

There is clear transparent and open data available and fact checks to show that vaccination makes a big difference on your chances of a severe reaction, hospitalisation or death from Covid.

What there is not available is data on what percentage of patients in ICU / ITU suffering from Covid are unvaccinated. Instead we have reports from various doctors / medical officials around the world stating that in their particular hospital 90 to 95% of patients in ICU are unvaccinated.

Now I am sure that vaccination status makes a big difference to your chances of being in ICU, but the 90 to 95% figure simply doesn't add up.

It would mean that 70%of patients hospitalised with Covid are vaccinated and 30% unvaccinated. However this then radically goes down for ICU to 5 to 10% vaccinated. But it then radically goes back up again for deaths with 70% vaccinated. This makes no sense at all and casts major doubt on the 90 to 95% in ICU are unvaccinated claim.

[/quote]
The recent 90% figure in the Time seems to relate to quite small numbers and a specific and extreme form of intensive care which wouldn't be appropriate for people who are old and frail. ICUs in general aren't full of octogenarians - they're full of forty-to-seventy year olds because they're the people who have a chance of surviving them.

That's why you might plausibly get a lot of vaccinated people coming into hospital with Covid and a lot of vaccinated people dying of Covid, because they're mostly the people so frail that even a 95% reduction in risk still leaves a lot of risk. But you don't see a lot of vaccinated people getting extreme treatment in ICU because the vaccinated people in hospital who'd be considered for ICU are disproportionately from a demographic too frail to benefit.

putting something in my body as a condition to work or access services goes against everything I believe in

That has nothing to do with being a Christian. All the Christians I know are double vaccinated, and loads of atheists are anti vaccination to access services. Please stop using being a Christian as a reason not to get vaccinated. It isn't a logical argument.

@dissociated what bs? That vaccines reduce the risk of serious illness/hospitalisation particularly in the most vulnerable groups?That we should prioritise boosters for the elderly/vulnerable? That’s not ‘nonsense and I’m not sure why you think I should feel remorseful about it. I’m not remorseful about disagreeing with mandatory/coerced vaccination and vaccine passports either.

If there’s anything I’ve said that you think lacks scientific basis, please let me know and I’ll link you to a relevant study.

@RampantIvy some Christians do take issue with the vaccines that were developed from the cell line that original came from an aborted foetus. Not all, but some.

[quote bumbleymummy]@RampantIvy some Christians do take issue with the vaccines that were developed from the cell line that original came from an aborted foetus. Not all, but some.[/quote]
So, do these same people refuse to take insulin, which was originally developed from pigs and dogs, should they develop diabetes?

I’m not sure what the link is between pigs and dogs and aborted foetuses.

@RampantIvy clearly those Christians have not read the last book of the Bible there is a warning about receiving a mark and right to buy and sell, do I think this is the mark of the beast I don't know and that's enough for me.

Also in original Greek text papyrii is says the following...

καὶ φῶς λύχνου οὐ μὴ φάνῃ ἐν σοὶ ἔτι ; καὶ φωνὴ νυμφίου καὶ νύμφης οὐ μὴ ἀκουσθῇ ἐν σοὶ ἔτι ; ὅτι οἱ ἔμποροί σου ἦσαν οἱ μεγιστᾶνες τῆς γῆς, ὅτι ἐν τῇ φαρμακείᾳ σου ἐπλανήθησαν πάντα τὰ ἔθνη.

kai phōs lychnou ou mē phanē en soi eti kai phōnē nymphiou kai nymphēs ou mē akousthē en soi eti hoti hoi emporoi sou ēsan hoi megistanes tēs gēs hoti en tē pharmakeia sou eplanēthēsan panta ta ethnē

If you translate pharmakeia what do you get.... now this doesn't say its linked to mark of beast but it does say "for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived." It's translated as sorcery in Bible but original Greek text says pharmaceutical/drugs.... so I take this as its our responsibility to be aware and as they are using vaccine passport and mandatory vax I will go no where near it.

Also I disagree with using anything that was developed using aborted fetus cells, and it depends on how it the Insulin was developed I would research it. And yes I don't do artifical flavouring as that was developed using aborted fetus cells.

There is a distinct difference between an aborted human fetus been used to animals (as long as its humane)

@bumbleymummy exactly, I find it funny people focus on that, rather than the other issues which are legitimate not just for Christians. Or the fact trust in NHS is gone after they almost killed my child....or the fact they are so focused on hating each other rather like the Government wants them distracted, like in NZ while everybody was distracted the PM pushed through the most horrific abortion law anyway, allowed upto birth, if child survives abortion attempt no legal right to care or pain relief....as a Christian I find abortion evil but I believe in choice, and ultimately everyone has to answer to God.

I think they legalised abortion up to 20 weeks, not full term.

@bumbleymummy nope full term

righttolife.org.uk/news/nz-pm-rushes-worlds-most-extreme-abortion-law-into-law-while-country-distracted-with-pandemic