90% of ICU patients admitted with COVID haven't been vaccinated.

[Desithebulldog]

Been listening to the news and they've said that 90% of the patients admitted to ICU with COVID haven't been vaccinated. For each patient admitted they are denying 10 other patients who need surgery their ICU beds. So currently (I'm sure there are more) there are 1,000 patients holding up 10,000 operations. I find this absolutely gobsmacking. Why, why, why would people not get vaccinated to help the NHS? They are on their knees and need all the help they can get. I know it's a personal choice but why are all the non-believers making it so hard for others to get a much needed operation? I just don't get it.

@godmum56

@Remmy123

I know quite a few unvaccinated adults who have had covid and none of them ended up near hospital in fact they all carried on working from home as usual! Not even a sick day.

I love a bit of useless anecdotal "evidence"

On NHS funding.
You can't compare health funding between countries because they all do it differently.
Germany for example has 5 times the number of ICU beds as the UK and were having to send covid patients to Italy in November.
German government spending is roughly the same as UK as a percentage of GDP but the big difference is that people there also have to pay for healthcare.

On underlying health conditions.
The phrase "did they have underlying health conditions" has become an anti vax / pro covid mantra. My feeling is that those who spout this feel smugly safe in the belief that it couldn't happen to them.

There’s a patient in the hospital I work in at the moment with covid, who just gave birth to a premature baby.
Makes me so so sad because this could have been prevented - baby would most likely have not been premature if it’s mother had been vaccinated.
Now that mother must have thought the risks from the vaccine were higher than the chance of catching Covid. Now her baby has to suffer the consequences of her stupid decision.

Why can't people see the difference between cases of Covid, hospitalisations with Covid and Covid cases that require admission to ICU? This thread is wholly about people with Covid who end up in ICU. Any other stats are irrelevant.

@Pinksloth

Why can't people see the difference between cases of Covid, hospitalisations with Covid and Covid cases that require admission to ICU? This thread is wholly about people with Covid who end up in ICU. Any other stats are irrelevant.

Yes, but where are those stats??

@EmbarrassingHadrosaurus

Is there any additional information on the patients who are unvaccinated? How many of them are are CEV and ineligible for vaccination? Pregnant or post-partum women who've had a lot of conflicting advice even from health care professionals?

Some people have profound distrust of healthcare systems and need a lot of persuasion.

I've no idea of these people's circumstances or what lead them to be unvaccinated.

This is a really good question. Some people can't have the vaccine - however much they wish they could. These may be those more vulnerable to infection too - they have been royally screwed by this government's let it rip and 'vaccination only' approach.

There's another way to free up ICU beds and that's to keep community levels of covid low by ventilating schools properly, insisting workplaces put in place mitigations etc.

[quote Starcup]@godmum56[/quote]
???

Are there any official statistics at all to support the OP's original post?

@doublemonkey

Are there any official statistics at all to support the OP's original post?

www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/bulletins/deathsinvolvingcovid19byvaccinationstatusengland/deathsoccurringbetween2januaryand24september2021

@doublemonkey

Are there any official statistics at all to support the OP's original post?

www.health-ni.gov.uk/news/vaccination-status-deaths-and-hospitalisations-report

German government spending is roughly the same as UK as a percentage of GDP but the big difference is that people there also have to pay for healthcare.

The other big difference is that Germany spends a great deal more per person than the UK. We don't have the same population or GDP.

In 2017, we spent about 67% what Germany spends on healthcare per person. Ie per person they spend about half as much again as we do.

Regardless of whether the money comes directly from the patient's pocket, goes via an insurance company, or goes via taxation, that's a lot more being spent on the healthcare of each German, than on each Brit.

www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/healthcaresystem/articles/howdoesukhealthcarespendingcomparewithothercountries/2019-08-29

Figure 1
Healthcare spending per person in OECD countries in 2017
Germany: £4,432
UK: £2,989
£ (purchasing power parity) per person

Figure 2: UK healthcare expenditure as a share of gross domestic product was the second-lowest of the G7 countries
2017
Germany: 11.2%
UK: 9.6%

@ivykaty44

I’d like to ask unvaccinated people, who have chosen not to have the vaccination how they’d feel about taking up an ICU bed and potentially preventing 10 lifesaving operations? Causing others to potential death or worsening outcomes

How do they justify this

Simple. They’re selfish, only think of themselves, and have “done their research” so they KNOW that it’s too big a risk to take an “unknown” vaccine, because Linda on Facebook shared a link.

There is NO point trying to have a sensible conversation

@CatAlice

On NHS funding. You can't compare health funding between countries because they all do it differently. Germany for example has 5 times the number of ICU beds as the UK and were having to send covid patients to Italy in November. German government spending is roughly the same as UK as a percentage of GDP but the big difference is that people there also have to pay for healthcare.

On underlying health conditions.
The phrase "did they have underlying health conditions" has become an anti vax / pro covid mantra. My feeling is that those who spout this feel smugly safe in the belief that it couldn't happen to them.

To me asking if they have underlying health conditions let's us track how effective the vaccine is in the majority of the population. If we start seeing loads of fully vaccinated healthy adults in ITU it should be sounding alarm bells. If the majority are already sick it tells us COVID hasn't yet evolved into something more dangerous.

The fact Borris isn't shielding (remember until he does these people have to go to work etc) or at least offering antibody tires is criminal!

‘ Remmy123

I know quite a few unvaccinated adults who have had covid and none of them ended up near hospital in fact they all carried on working from home as usual! Not even a sick day.’
^

I’m assuming you think this means that COVID doesn’t cause serious illness and death in others because of this?

I mean… there are actual cancer survivors too. Does that mean cancer doesn’t kill people?

I know plenty of people who speed, obviously that means that speeding doesn’t kill people either because the people I know who do it are alive.

Goodness me.

‘ hamstersarse
The thread is utter propaganda bollocks

Currently:

6,639 cases
2,355 unvaccinated 35.47%
3,998 vaccinated 60.21%

If you are going to go after the unvaccinated, at least maintain your integrity while you do it (i.e. not lie)

If this were the other way round (e.g. adverse events) the thread would be reported and deleted for misinformation’

You’re missing a critical step here in the way you’re thinking… I’ll wait for the penny to drop.

@ichundich, those stats are for Northern Ireland.

The fact that I can look beyond rhetoric and see humanity doesn't make me sanctimonious.

That is a really sanctimonious statement!

@Bigballer

Why would each Covid patient be denying 10 other people a bed? That just doesn't make sense. And the reason the NHS is on its knees is because of all the restrictions, countless people have died of other things because the government's and NHS priority was Covid. About time they just get on with things and not worry about Covid.

because they are there for a while?

@Tryingtryingandtrying

This is the January to July data. Including the winter peak when noone was fully vaccinated.

No, as is made clear in the cited article from The Times, the data from NHS England refers to the period between between July and November, when more than nine in 10 patients receiving the most specialist care, in which artificial lungs were used to try to save their lives, were unvaccinated.

[quote doublemonkey]@ichundich, those stats are for Northern Ireland.[/quote]
I realise that. But they will be very similar for England, and the other stats for Jan-Jun that I posted also show exactly this.

‘ Bigballer
Why would each Covid patient be denying 10 other people a bed? That just doesn't make sense. And the reason the NHS is on its knees is because of all the restrictions, countless people have died of other things because the government's and NHS priority was Covid. About time they just get on with things and not worry about Covid.’

Gosh… say this to the multiple staff who have had to walk away from nursing due to ptsd.

@milkyaqua

The fact that I can look beyond rhetoric and see humanity doesn't make me sanctimonious.

That is a really sanctimonious statement!

But it's not sanctimonious. It's just the truth. The problem with this whole debate is that people are acting as if everything is black and white, when it isn't.

The popular rhetoric is 'vaccinated person = good' and 'non-vaccinated = bad'.

There is so much wrong with this for me to go into here but it's basically just groupthink.

Saying someone is a 'thicko' because they don't see the world in the same way as you is actually really quite ironic. There's no desire to have a conversation there - just a point blank - 'you're thick'.

The reality is the vaccines aren't perfect, they do have quite severe side effects, they have killed people, there is coercion going on in order to force people to have them, and as with anything to do with public health, it's never just about the public good, but also about making some people a lot of money. So I can see perfectly well why some people are hesitant. It's actually very rational to have doubts about something that can potentially kill you and that you're being forced to have.

@Pinksloth

Why can't people see the difference between cases of Covid, hospitalisations with Covid and Covid cases that require admission to ICU? This thread is wholly about people with Covid who end up in ICU. Any other stats are irrelevant.

Exactly. The 90% (actually, 94%) proportion of unvaccinated people in ICU beds, stated by the NHS for the period from July to November, refers specifically to seriously ill patients undergoing extracorporeal membrane oxygenation (ECMO) in which blood is cycled through an artificial lung machine before returning it to the body. Of these patients, only 6 per cent had been fully vaccinated.

There's no desire to have a conversation there

I don't see you having any conversations on the covid boards about this, patiently responding to false claims, trying to get through to people with some facts - as many posters do diligently month after month, some since early 2020. I have lost my patience tonight.

In fact, your sole contribution to the discussion on Covid has been to decry the vaccines. I am surprised you have (or so you claim) resorted to getting vaccinated. Twice. As you said.