90% of ICU patients admitted with COVID haven't been vaccinated.

[Desithebulldog]

Been listening to the news and they've said that 90% of the patients admitted to ICU with COVID haven't been vaccinated. For each patient admitted they are denying 10 other patients who need surgery their ICU beds. So currently (I'm sure there are more) there are 1,000 patients holding up 10,000 operations. I find this absolutely gobsmacking. Why, why, why would people not get vaccinated to help the NHS? They are on their knees and need all the help they can get. I know it's a personal choice but why are all the non-believers making it so hard for others to get a much needed operation? I just don't get it.

@Unsure33 Even with that, the Nightingales were not used (as hospitals)
People pulled out of retirement were used to staff regular hospitals.

They were a very expensive PR reassurance exercise.

@hamstersarse

The thread is utter propaganda bollocks

Currently:

6,639 cases
2,355 unvaccinated 35.47%
3,998 vaccinated 60.21%

If you are going to go after the unvaccinated, at least maintain your integrity while you do it (i.e. not lie)

If this were the other way round (e.g. adverse events) the thread would be reported and deleted for misinformation

not sure we can take any notice of your post when you dont even read what the thread is about

your post is bollocks actually

@AngeloMysterioso

I’m usually pretty liberal but where this is concerned I’m beginning to feel quite strongly that if someone is prepared to not have the covid vaccine (unless advised not to for medical reasons) they should be prepared to not have treatment if/when they get covid. They knew the risks and made their choice.

Can they get a tax rebate then if they are not going to receive treatment for supposedly "free at the point of delivery" health care which they may have paid thousands of pounds of tax towards?

And patients that are in hospital for obesity or smoking related ill health does the same apply in terms of your indignation or does it only apply to people who don't want a vaccine inserted into their body rather than a hamburger or cigarette?

@churchofthepoisonmind

I’m usually pretty liberal but where this is concerned I’m beginning to feel quite strongly that if someone is prepared to not have the covid vaccine (unless advised not to for medical reasons) they should be prepared to not have treatment if/when they get covid. They knew the risks and made their choice. How many times does it need saying. If we are talking about lifestyle choices, we have to be consistent so the same should therefore also go for obesity, alcoholics, people who pursue risky sports eg rock climbing, and so on. All are people making a poor lifestyle choice which ultimately places strain on the NHS. This really is basic stuff, it should not need explaining.

There is a fairly fundamental difference between refusing a vaccine (when getting it would take a minor effort on a couple of days), and dealing day in and day out with an alcohol problem or obesity: patterns of drinking and of eating are very, very hard to break, much harder than getting on the bus to the vaccination centre. And rock climbers, rugby players, horse riders, are at least out there keeping fit: to call climbing a 'poor lifestyle choice' is just daft (unless the person is free climbing, in which case yes, they're taking a pointless risk).

There is no vaccine for stupidity unfortunately.

What percentage of the vaccinated population are the 3,998 and what percentage of the unvaccinated population the 2,355?

@Lostinacloud

I would just be a bit wary of figures like these to be honest. Double vaccinated patients eligible for a booster are now being counted as unvaccinated in the stats so I’m not quite sure I can entirely believe headline figures like these. Patients less than 2 weeks post vaccination or booster are also included and there are some who argue that pre 14 days the immune system is temporarily lowered.

Exactly this.

It’s not correct to say that 90% are unvaccinated

According to this chart (from the U.K. health security agency) there are 6639 cases in total; 2355 are unvaccinated. How does this make up 90% of cases? It’s more like 35%? Happy to be corrected if I have miscalculated or misunderstood.

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1037987/Vaccine-surveillance-report-week-48.pdf

[quote bumbleymummy]@NdujaWannaDance

You really have to move away from the ‘doing your bit’ narrative. The vaccine does not prevent infection/transmission. If a young, healthy person decides that they don’t want the vaccine abd contract the virus they are still ‘doing their bit’ by contributing to immunity in the population. And studies show that to be broad and durable in the majority.[/quote]
Vaccination can't eliminate infection/transmission, but it lowers the likelihood and severity of both significantly. Is that really so hard to comprehend or are you ignoring this fact because it doesn't fit your narrative?

According to this chart (from the U.K. health security agency) there are 6639 cases in total; 2355 are unvaccinated. How does this make up 90% of cases? It’s more like 35%? Happy to be corrected if I have miscalculated or misunderstood.

Hospital admissions (your figures) are not the same thing as ICU inpatients (which is what the 90% statistic refers to).

Anyone know where the stats the OP is referencing are from?
The only thing I can find is number so people on mechanical ventilation, no mention of whether they are vaccinated or not. In any case, those numbers are down dramatically..

coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/healthcare?areaType=overview%26areaName=United%20Kingdom#card-patients_in_mechanical_ventilation_beds

@NdujaWannaDance

Pyewackect

But yes , 90% are unvaccinated and we’ve had two emergency C sections on our unit ( unheard of before ). The babies were OK, sadly one of the mothers didn’t make it.

And do you happen to know whether that mother fell into a category that is known to be more vulnerable to serious illness or death from Covid?

Yes, she was pregnant. This is a category which is known to be vulnerable to serious illness or death from covid. Your immune system changes during pregnancy.

I know a few people who refused the vaccine or have decided to get it late so not yet fully vaxxed. The reasons they would give are:
Don't trust the vaccine
Prefer to take my chances
Want to see how it works out for others first
Had bad side effects from first so didn't get second

I don't think they have considered the impact it would have on others if they actually got ill - one is a carer for a highly vulnerable person, if that's not a reason to get vaccinated then what is?

Honestly, people like you are no better than the antivaxxers for whom you are filled with such contempt.

Flinging around hatred and bigotry gets us nowhere.

I think you should spare some of your trademark higher-road compassion for the poster I quoted, who is managing a surgical service across two hospital sites, and watching patients die before their surgery can be rescheduled (again) as a result of the unvaxxed.

I don't think calling anti-vaxxers 'thickos' is anything more than intense frustration on their part.

You would have to be pretty thick to imagine you know more than all the experts in the world on this virus and on the vaccines now available. Also, stunningly arrogant. Or hideously misled. Or all three.

The level of denial is so deep, I expect it is close to unrecoverable.

@doublemonkey

"NHS England said that between July and November more than nine in 10 patients receiving the most specialist care, in which artificial lungs were used to try to save their lives, were unvaccinated.

This is undermining efforts to reduce the backlog of surgeries and the overall NHS waiting list, which had grown to 5.8 million people by the end of September."

This is from the Times article linked in a previous post of mine.

I can't find the figures on a quick Google, but presumably this is what is referenced in the OP

@Desithebulldog - I think that % had been resolutely debunked today.

Oh and by side effects, I mean feeling ill. Nothing requiring a trip to the Dr or hospital.

Can I say as an Indian person with (vaxxed) family in India how unconvincing I find anti-vaxxers trying to justify not even taking one vax and pretending they care about poor Indians? Please. You fool nobody with your sanctimony.

There is a lot to be said about the West hoarding vaccines but that is for another thread. And known anti-vaxxers on this thread using that argument are like people bringing up the Holocaust in reference to Germany's current situation. Specious. Just bending over backwards to justify not getting jabbed.

About time they just get on with things and not worry about Covid.

But this IS getting on with it. Not getting vaccinated. Not closing everything down. Not taking any aditinal precautions, personal or national. This is what that looks like.

Unvaccinated people, for whatver reasons, are now again doing what all of those lockdown week and months were trying to reduce. The very reason we were ever locked down in the first place. The warnings, the predictions, the fears of infections yet to come. THIS IS IT and we are expected to love with it.

And that includes those whose post operative ICU bed is now inhabited by a Covid patient.

The scenario politicians, NHS et al have been trying to explain for almost 2 years now, re Covid. And remember the similar warnings we have been given for decades about the general fragility of a syatem that has had additional layers of management embroidered onto an increasingly smaller front line.

Next budget, or three, when whichever 'They' is in charge, increase various taxes remember just how precarious and fragile the NHS and care settings are. It isn't only the Tories that have done this. Labour are equally culpable. Demand better. Contact your MP and let them know this matters to you and could win/lose them your vote!

I know quite a few unvaccinated adults who have had covid and none of them ended up near hospital in fact they all carried on working from home as usual! Not even a sick day.

@Neron

As throughout this thread you've tried to deflect from the current issue, which is anti vaxxers. Why is that? Alas, if you think I haven't had my vaccinations hence my comments, then I'd be disappointing you. Had both.

I didn't assume that you hadn't had the vaccine. I just asked why you keep derailing the thread.

@CaliforniaDrumming

Can I say as an Indian person with (vaxxed) family in India how unconvincing I find anti-vaxxers trying to justify not even taking one vax and pretending they care about poor Indians? Please. You fool nobody with your sanctimony.

There is a lot to be said about the West hoarding vaccines but that is for another thread. And known anti-vaxxers on this thread using that argument are like people bringing up the Holocaust in reference to Germany's current situation. Specious. Just bending over backwards to justify not getting jabbed.

I have been vaccinated, actually. Twice.

I'm not the one being sanctimonious. I don't feel proud of myself for having a vaccine. I didn't do it for anyone other than myself.

It's the people who bang on about how they're saving humanity by getting 'vaxxed' yet who see no contradiction in wanting everyone in their own country vaccinated three times while whole swathes of the world population go unvaccinated that are sanctimonious.

There are many people who are nervous about being vaccinated. Fear has been spread by many people and unfortunately at a time when the world doesn't seem to make sense, there are a lot of people whose fear has led them to want to move away from what they term 'mainstream' narratives. I understand that fear and I feel compassionate towards those people. They are living in a world where they believe the government is plotting to kill them. I can't imagine living with that level of fear on a daily basis. Let's remember that these conspiracy theories wouldn't exist if our governments were filled with people who we could trust. The fact that they're not is what fuels these alternative belief systems.

The fact that I can look beyond rhetoric and see humanity doesn't make me sanctimonious.

[quote herecomesthsun]@doublemonkey

"NHS England said that between July and November more than nine in 10 patients receiving the most specialist care, in which artificial lungs were used to try to save their lives, were unvaccinated.

This is undermining efforts to reduce the backlog of surgeries and the overall NHS waiting list, which had grown to 5.8 million people by the end of September."

This is from the Times article linked in a previous post of mine.

I can't find the figures on a quick Google, but presumably this is what is referenced in the OP[/quote]
Thanks but I mean actual government statistics?

The government link I posted clearly shows that the number of people needing mechanical ventilation is way down.

You would have to be pretty thick to imagine you know more than all the experts in the world on this virus and on the vaccines now available. Also, stunningly arrogant. Or hideously misled. Or all three.

This.

point missed here....those unvaccinated young fit and healthy are more likely to spread it and more likely to incubate mutations....and while the stats ARE much lower, some of them DO get covid badly enough to end up in hospital and DO go on and get long covid

No the point isn’t missed, young people are not likely to get seriously ill, to suggest otherwise is bollocks.

I didn’t say they shouldn’t get the vaccine did I? And I did say they would transmit it. I said theres more to it than them getting ill, such as the consequences on not being able to get an ambulance etc…

That’s a much more detrimental outcome for them than catching covid and a reason enough to have the vaccine.

@WoodyGd

I manage a surgical service across two hospital sites.

The worst part of my job is calling patients to tell them their surgery is cancelled due to no ITU bed. These are not people who are having some routine minor surgery, they need ITU because they are due for major life saving surgery.

They’ve planned their time off, they’ve isolated, they’ve been swabbed, they’ve had countless appointments/tests/pre ops and then they get me on the phone saying “sorry no go”.

The worst part is that you don’t know how it will go until the day before. There is a meeting first thing everyday to see if any patients can stepped down from ITU to a normal bed. If it’s a no then it’s a case of, ok there’s one bed, who gets it? We have specialities fighting each other for the chance to go ahead, pitting cancer against cancer or AAAs. Patients losing limbs because the bypass they need can’t be done because there isn’t a bed for them afterwards (might as well just take the limb once the leg is rotten enough).

All so some thicko can practice his or her right to not be vaccinated. It’s disgusting.

I already know I’ll have a cancellation this morning, it’s beyond bloody depressing

This is horrendous. Poor things. And poor you. Xx