90% of ICU patients admitted with COVID haven't been vaccinated.

[Desithebulldog]

Been listening to the news and they've said that 90% of the patients admitted to ICU with COVID haven't been vaccinated. For each patient admitted they are denying 10 other patients who need surgery their ICU beds. So currently (I'm sure there are more) there are 1,000 patients holding up 10,000 operations. I find this absolutely gobsmacking. Why, why, why would people not get vaccinated to help the NHS? They are on their knees and need all the help they can get. I know it's a personal choice but why are all the non-believers making it so hard for others to get a much needed operation? I just don't get it.

This is a point not to be ignored. There are a shortage of ICU beds and staff because most in ICU are unvaccinated.

My friends father was in ICU for 3 weeks, their whole family strong anti vaxxers. They still all refuse to wear masks. And our local hospital now is putting off cancer patient surgery because of the lack of ICU beds. There are consequences, its’ just a fact.

I don’t think anyone should be mandated or forced to have a vaccination, but I do think that potentially taking up an ICU bed should factor into anyone’s decision making.

The reality is the vaccines aren't perfect, they do have quite severe side effects

Severe side effects are very, very, very rare as the 4214,000,000 people who have so far been vaccinated can testify.

I know quite a few unvaccinated adults who have had covid and none of them ended up near hospital in fact they all carried on working from home as usual! Not even a sick day

@Remmy123 I know a lady who survived cervical cancer, despite us being told that smear tests and screening are so important. Does that mean we can all avoid smear tests from now on, because I’ve “done my research” and “weighed up the risks”?

Thank you @EnidSpyton.

Was actually just sitting here, reading this thread, unvaccinated, over 50, Covid recovered and not enjoying robust MH for a while now, thinking that maybe, according to the prevailing attitude I should just off myself now, very thoroughly
so as not to inconvenience anyone, because I'm already deemed worthless in many people's eyes. Have already decided should I be unlucky enough to catch Covid again I wouldn't dream of approaching for medical help.

I wonder how long it will be before someones suicide is ruled as partly down to fear of coercion to have the vaccine?

I wonder how long it will be before perhaps frustrated Healthcare workers decide on their own standards of treatment for the unvaccinated in hospital?

Accuse me of paranoia, hyperbole, whatever you want, but the black and white thinking on display and the overall lack of compassion for humanity in all its frail glory does hint that it wouldn't take much for the torches and pitchforks to come out.

Taking bets that this post will last 30 seconds or so before someone froths over the perceived insults to HCPs. However, I will say I feel for them and support them too. It's the vitriol and division and attitudes that actually scare me the most.

@MistressoftheDarkSide

Thank you *@EnidSpyton*.

Was actually just sitting here, reading this thread, unvaccinated, over 50, Covid recovered and not enjoying robust MH for a while now, thinking that maybe, according to the prevailing attitude I should just off myself now, very thoroughly
so as not to inconvenience anyone, because I'm already deemed worthless in many people's eyes. Have already decided should I be unlucky enough to catch Covid again I wouldn't dream of approaching for medical help.

I wonder how long it will be before someones suicide is ruled as partly down to fear of coercion to have the vaccine?

I wonder how long it will be before perhaps frustrated Healthcare workers decide on their own standards of treatment for the unvaccinated in hospital?

Accuse me of paranoia, hyperbole, whatever you want, but the black and white thinking on display and the overall lack of compassion for humanity in all its frail glory does hint that it wouldn't take much for the torches and pitchforks to come out.

Taking bets that this post will last 30 seconds or so before someone froths over the perceived insults to HCPs. However, I will say I feel for them and support them too. It's the vitriol and division and attitudes that actually scare me the most.

Mistress can I ask why you don’t want to be vaccinated?

I’m not going to have a go, I’m interested in why some people choose not to

@MistressoftheDarkSide

Thank you *@EnidSpyton*.

Was actually just sitting here, reading this thread, unvaccinated, over 50, Covid recovered and not enjoying robust MH for a while now, thinking that maybe, according to the prevailing attitude I should just off myself now, very thoroughly
so as not to inconvenience anyone, because I'm already deemed worthless in many people's eyes. Have already decided should I be unlucky enough to catch Covid again I wouldn't dream of approaching for medical help.

I wonder how long it will be before someones suicide is ruled as partly down to fear of coercion to have the vaccine?

I wonder how long it will be before perhaps frustrated Healthcare workers decide on their own standards of treatment for the unvaccinated in hospital?

Accuse me of paranoia, hyperbole, whatever you want, but the black and white thinking on display and the overall lack of compassion for humanity in all its frail glory does hint that it wouldn't take much for the torches and pitchforks to come out.

Taking bets that this post will last 30 seconds or so before someone froths over the perceived insults to HCPs. However, I will say I feel for them and support them too. It's the vitriol and division and attitudes that actually scare me the most.

I dont quite understand why you are feeling so sorry for yourself? You're only being asked to get vaccinated.

Bad reaction to a childhood vaccine and overall more negative experiences with the system than positive ones, not just me but extended family.

On the balance if probability, in my head, it's not a risk I feel comfortable with so I'm doing all other mitigations as mandated.

I have just had too many highly unlikely things occur in my life to think this is worth the risk. And the anxiety it induces in me may be irrational, but it's still my choice, so far.

@Derbee yes but that was her decision to not have her smear test. She still deserves to get treated if she gets cervical cancer?

None of the stats so far state that 90% of ICU beds are consumed by unvaccinated covid sufferers.

Happy to be corrected if I've missed the relevant link but we have a lot of anecdotes, stats on numbers of deaths, stats on covid sufferers in ICU but none which breaks down ICU beds by covid/noncovid and then covid by vaccinated/unvaccinated.

However this does make a fabulous distraction from the extent to which ICU capabilities have been run down over the past decade.

There are plenty of good arguments for vaccines, using vaccine status to mask the delinquent state of our ICU capacity is not one of them.

I agree with orher posters and people declining should put in writing they also dont want icu!!
(Obviously this wouldnt be people with ld or asd. Hopefully a spray will come out for needle phobics.
However i would argue vaccination is possible, so maybe lengths need to be gone to. For eg m y dc1 had to have an op through their own fault and was so worked up i doubted strongly they would allow the needle in for general anaesthetic or have a mask. They gave us a premed and dc was calm enough and it was fine.
In contrast we went to a chemist for chicken pox vax and the staff wasnt very good and wouldnt push it (dc was around 6) they wanted me to hold the kid a specific way but not possible to hold both arms and legs. Anyway finally after 30/40 min we managed it.

My opinion is that people are entitled to not have the vaccine.
They are entitled to still get NHS treatment.

What they are not entitled to is my respect or sympathy. I will save that for the people who are not getting cancer treatment because the ICU is full, and the health staff who have to take care of the unvaxxed. You can't have everything.

@C8H10N4O2

None of the stats so far state that 90% of ICU beds are consumed by unvaccinated covid sufferers.

Happy to be corrected if I've missed the relevant link but we have a lot of anecdotes, stats on numbers of deaths, stats on covid sufferers in ICU but none which breaks down ICU beds by covid/noncovid and then covid by vaccinated/unvaccinated.

However this does make a fabulous distraction from the extent to which ICU capabilities have been run down over the past decade.

There are plenty of good arguments for vaccines, using vaccine status to mask the delinquent state of our ICU capacity is not one of them.

"NHS England said that between July and November more than nine in 10 patients receiving the most specialist care, in which artificial lungs were used to try to save their lives, were unvaccinated."

This country is obsessed with saving the NHS. I do not expect people to get vaccinated to save the NHS. Why? I personally pay my taxes and do not use the NHS.

Some people may not get the boosters because we were led to believe that after one vaccination was going to be okay. Then two doses but now the immunity lasts less than 6 months so come the boosters. How many? Why are the anti virals taking so long to be rolled out? This could help to solve this problem of the ICU.

People who have "done their own risk assessment" seem to be the least capable of doing a risk assessment.

Again and again you see people saying they won't take the infinitesimal risk of adverse vaccine reaction but are perfectly content to take the much greater and quite real risk of serious Covid infection 🤯

Happy to be corrected if I've missed the relevant link

No, you've just misread the OP.

The OP states that "90% of the patients admitted to ICU with COVID haven't been vaccinated".

Not that 90% of ICU beds are occupied by someone with Covid.

None of the stats so far state that 90% of ICU beds are consumed by unvaccinated covid sufferers.

This statistic is referring to a subset of ICU patients who received Ecmo between July and November this year.

The latest report by ICNARC shows that between May and July 2021, 73% of ICU patients overall had not been vaccinated. More recent figures showing vaccination status of ICU patients are due to be published this week. My experience on ICU makes me suspect this figure may be a bit lower, but not massively so and probably results from increasing proportions of people in all age groups now having had 2 doses. This does not mean that the vaccines are less effective than they were.

NHS England said that between July and November more than nine in 10 patients receiving the most specialist care, in which artificial lungs were used to try to save their lives, were unvaccinated

That isn't stats. If NHSE have the data behind it then it should be published with the rest of the stats.

Also is this all patients or just covid patients (for whom vaccination status isn't the determinant).

A year ago we had much the same claims being made for overweight vs healthy weight people, including from health bodies. That turned out to be largely a work of fiction by journalists when the actual stats were made available and other issues were factored in.

Lovely, how we are all spitting on the unvaccinated, instead of asking why funding has been cut to the bone so severely.

My db was in ICU last week triple vaccinated. The stats you saw have been twisted by the media to try and dehumanise the "unvaccinated". I am double jabbed but think that the treatment of those who have not had the vaccine is terrible. Most of them are probably younger people who have had covid or are worried about the effects and most of them don't end up in hosptial.

@ChristmasKrackers

Lovely, how we are all spitting on the unvaccinated, instead of asking why funding has been cut to the bone so severely.

we're doing both, but personally I'd suggest spitting isn't a good idea with a virus going round. The fact of funding being cut doesn't negate the concept that not being vaccinated against covid is stupidity for most.

No one is 'spitting' on anyone.

It is a sad fact that there is no vaccination against stupidity though.

@ChristmasKrackers

Lovely, how we are all spitting on the unvaccinated, instead of asking why funding has been cut to the bone so severely.

Not sure about the spitting but even countries with higher funding have this issue

If you look to Germany and measures introduced

I am double jabbed but think that the treatment of those who have not had the vaccine is terrible

What 'treatment' would that be?? Have I missed something?

Lovely, how we are all spitting on the unvaccinated, instead of asking why funding has been cut to the bone so severely.

They are two entirely different conversations. Stop deflecting.