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Covid

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90% of ICU patients admitted with COVID haven't been vaccinated.

999 replies

Desithebulldog · 06/12/2021 00:55

Been listening to the news and they've said that 90% of the patients admitted to ICU with COVID haven't been vaccinated. For each patient admitted they are denying 10 other patients who need surgery their ICU beds. So currently (I'm sure there are more) there are 1,000 patients holding up 10,000 operations. I find this absolutely gobsmacking. Why, why, why would people not get vaccinated to help the NHS? They are on their knees and need all the help they can get. I know it's a personal choice but why are all the non-believers making it so hard for others to get a much needed operation? I just don't get it.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
15
hamstersarse · 06/12/2021 12:12

The thread is utter propaganda bollocks

Currently:

6,639 cases
2,355 unvaccinated 35.47%
3,998 vaccinated 60.21%

If you are going to go after the unvaccinated, at least maintain your integrity while you do it (i.e. not lie)

If this were the other way round (e.g. adverse events) the thread would be reported and deleted for misinformation

KaycePollard · 06/12/2021 12:13

Why, why, why would people not get vaccinated to help the NHS? They are on their knees and need all the help they can get. I know it's a personal choice but why are all the non-believers making it so hard for others to get a much needed operation? I just don't get it.

I agree @Desithebulldog but posters here will tell you you're wrong ... And offer all sorts of "What aboutery ..."

What about people who go skiing and get injured?
What about people who smoke ?

and so on and on.

mam0918 · 06/12/2021 12:15

@Bigballer

Why would each Covid patient be denying 10 other people a bed? That just doesn't make sense. And the reason the NHS is on its knees is because of all the restrictions, countless people have died of other things because the government's and NHS priority was Covid. About time they just get on with things and not worry about Covid.
For example:

My mastectomy was super straightforward, no lymph nodes removed, no muscle removal, no drain needed and no complications, I was there 12 hours and sent home the same day (so despite being pretty big surgery it was completed as a day surgery).

Virtually no one admitted for Covid is going to be there under 12 hours they will be there for days or weeks thus stoping many surgeries that could have been done quicker.

thepeopleversuswork · 06/12/2021 12:16

@bumbleymummy

Flu can also hospitalise and kill young, fit people. The rates for that group are comparable.

This is simply not true.

From the British Medical Journal:

Are there more deaths from flu than from covid?
Data from the Office for National Statistics show that in England and Wales the number of deaths from influenza was 1598 in 2018 and 1223 in 2019.1 This is way below the annual deaths from covid-19, which at the current rate of around 800 deaths a week in England and Wales equates to more than 40 000 a year.2

CatAlice · 06/12/2021 12:17

I know all the problems the NHS has but the bottom line is that with ICU full of patients with avoidable illness it backs up the rest of the hospital.

Sometimes even minor surgery requires an ITU bed. When I had surgery for breast cancer two years ago there was a bed "reserved" for me in ITU. Had that not been there my surgery would have been cancelled, delays could have cost me my life.
A close friend has had major surgery cancelled twice because no ICU bed.

I am fully vaccinated but immunosuppressed so one of those for whom the vaccine is less effective and was in hospital with covid over a week. Not on ICU fortunately but nevertheless in a ward which was entirely given over to covid. You spend a lot of time with other patients and there is no privacy. We all chatted.
My fellow patients were all unvaccinated for a variety of reasons - elderly woman who's son told her not to have it, yoga teacher who thought she was supremely healthy and didn't need it, others who claimed they just hadn't got round to it. No one spouted anti vax stuff and they all seemed to regret their decision.

All the staff were caring, kind and professional but I suspect they were privately frustrated. The first question doctors asked of every patient they came to was "are you vaccinated" and if not why not.

HowManyTimesHaveIToldYou · 06/12/2021 12:18

@hamstersarse

The thread is utter propaganda bollocks

Currently:

6,639 cases
2,355 unvaccinated 35.47%
3,998 vaccinated 60.21%

If you are going to go after the unvaccinated, at least maintain your integrity while you do it (i.e. not lie)

If this were the other way round (e.g. adverse events) the thread would be reported and deleted for misinformation

Your figures are total in hospital. The thread is about numbers in ICU. They are not the same
mam0918 · 06/12/2021 12:18

@hamstersarse

The thread is utter propaganda bollocks

Currently:

6,639 cases
2,355 unvaccinated 35.47%
3,998 vaccinated 60.21%

If you are going to go after the unvaccinated, at least maintain your integrity while you do it (i.e. not lie)

If this were the other way round (e.g. adverse events) the thread would be reported and deleted for misinformation

The number of cases is not the same as the number of ICU admissions though - not propaganda your just reading an unrelated statistic and drawing a random conclusion.
RobinPenguins · 06/12/2021 12:19

@hamstersarse

The thread is utter propaganda bollocks

Currently:

6,639 cases
2,355 unvaccinated 35.47%
3,998 vaccinated 60.21%

If you are going to go after the unvaccinated, at least maintain your integrity while you do it (i.e. not lie)

If this were the other way round (e.g. adverse events) the thread would be reported and deleted for misinformation

Only if MN staff can’t read.
howdiditcometothis666 · 06/12/2021 12:19

[quote Awakened22]@howdiditcometothis666 amazing, well done!![/quote]
Thank you ! I think if more people realised how much excess weight affects Covid recovery we'd all be dieting :-)

NdujaWannaDance · 06/12/2021 12:23

I don't know anyone, or know anyone who knows anyone, who has died of Covid.

I do know, or at least know of some people who have died of Covid or been hospitalised.

Before Vaccines were available:

A man of mediterranean heritage in his late seventies who died. (My friend's father.)

A white man in his 70's - no idea whether there were other factors, but as far as his family are concerned he went into hospital purely because of Covid and he died. (My friend's father.)

A woman of Caribbean heritage in her sixties who was very ill and hospitalised but who recovered. (My friend's mum.)

A white woman in her late forties, moderately overweight but otherwise healthy, was in ICU and very nearly died. It was absolutely touch and go, and her recovery was very slow once home. (My friend.)

Boris Johnson, a white, moderately overweight but otherwise fit and healthy man who was in ICU for quite a while and nearly died.

Post Vaccine Availability: (although I have no idea whether these people were fully vaxxed or not)

A white man in his fifties who had problems with his kidneys. He died. (My friend's partner.)

A white man in his seventies who was a heavy drinker. Went into hospital with an unrelated injury sustained in a fall (punctured lung) had a positive covid test upon admittance (didn't know he had it) never came home. Died of Covid, not of his other injuries, but the fact that he had a lung injury would not have helped him fight Covid. (My friend's father.)

I also have good friends whose whole family came down with Covid before vaccinations were available. Man in his late 50's with underlying conditions was ill but not seriously so. His wife same age, underlying conditions was ill but not seriously so. Her mother in her late 80's was only mildly ill and recovered fully and quickly. A DD in her 20's with underlying conditions was mildly ill but recovered. The illest person in the house by far was their other DD, slim, fit and healthy in her late 20s. So there is an element of lottery to it.

I do, however, know people who have died since March 2020 of things untreated because of Covid being the only thing that appears to matter.

And I fully agree that it's appalling that Covid is STILL the only thing that seems to matter. I can't wait to see the back of it and for far more prioritisation of non-covid related treatments. The long term implications on the nation's physical and mental health and wellbeing of covid and repeated lockdowns and the inability to get face to face with a GP for the last 18 months or more is catastrophic.

But while we have a healthcare system that treats every life as equally valid and worthy of saving, irrespective of whether that person's illness or injury could be deemed to be in any way self inflicted, or the consequence of poor choices, or whether that person is already extremely elderly or extremely compromised, people who need hospitalisation and emergency treatment for Covid will continue to get it. And that means treatment for other less immediately pressing illnesses will continue to be pushed back.

This is why we NEED to focus on getting as many people as possible fully vaccinated (and then boosted as necessary) as quickly as possible.

As tempting as it is to say 'well the odds suggest I'll be fine, so if you are at risk then you do what you need to do and leave me out of it' just doesn't work in a very highly civilized society like ours. We have a moral obligation to treat every life as equally worthy of saving. We could have a deep philosophical argument about whether that's right or not, and whether we should be taking a more pragmatic, less sentimental approach, but the fact is, at the moment we don't.

And that's why it's so fucking stupid and selfish to continue to refuse to be vaxxed when you are fully able to - especially if you fall into a higher risk demographic yourself. Because the majority of decent community-minded people are taking up your share of the slack. Even though we've gone and got double jabbed and jumped through every hoop we've been asked to, even though the vast majoirty of us would have been fine if we hadn't, we are still living with restrictions of one sort or another, to protect people like you.

C8H10N4O2 · 06/12/2021 12:26

@Desithebulldog

Been listening to the news and they've said that 90% of the patients admitted to ICU with COVID haven't been vaccinated. For each patient admitted they are denying 10 other patients who need surgery their ICU beds. So currently (I'm sure there are more) there are 1,000 patients holding up 10,000 operations. I find this absolutely gobsmacking. Why, why, why would people not get vaccinated to help the NHS? They are on their knees and need all the help they can get. I know it's a personal choice but why are all the non-believers making it so hard for others to get a much needed operation? I just don't get it.
Where is the raw data behind this? And the associated data which says how many in ICU are unable to be vaccinated or who can't benefit from vaccination?

I'm mildly bemused that someone would NC to post this so hopefully the OP will return with some facts behind the story rather than risk propagating more unsubstantiated headlines.

Of course we could also comment on the state of ICU capacity pre pandemic being the lowest per head of population in Europe last time I looked. Of course its always more attractive to blame a nameless "them" so that we and government don't have to actually do anything beyond pointing a finger.

Looking forward to hearing how many beds are used by people injured in the workplace (employer should pay?), sports and other lifestyle choices (elective insurance required?).

I recommend people get vaccinated but they are being used to provide a convenient scapegoat for many other failings in the health system.

milkyaqua · 06/12/2021 12:26

@WoodyGd

I manage a surgical service across two hospital sites.

The worst part of my job is calling patients to tell them their surgery is cancelled due to no ITU bed. These are not people who are having some routine minor surgery, they need ITU because they are due for major life saving surgery.

They’ve planned their time off, they’ve isolated, they’ve been swabbed, they’ve had countless appointments/tests/pre ops and then they get me on the phone saying “sorry no go”.

The worst part is that you don’t know how it will go until the day before. There is a meeting first thing everyday to see if any patients can stepped down from ITU to a normal bed. If it’s a no then it’s a case of, ok there’s one bed, who gets it? We have specialities fighting each other for the chance to go ahead, pitting cancer against cancer or AAAs. Patients losing limbs because the bypass they need can’t be done because there isn’t a bed for them afterwards (might as well just take the limb once the leg is rotten enough).

All so some thicko can practice his or her right to not be vaccinated. It’s disgusting.

I already know I’ll have a cancellation this morning, it’s beyond bloody depressing

Repeating again for truth. Also repeating doubly for truth:

All so some thicko can practice his or her right to not be vaccinated. It’s disgusting.

RincewindsHat · 06/12/2021 12:26

@AngeloMysterioso

I’m usually pretty liberal but where this is concerned I’m beginning to feel quite strongly that if someone is prepared to not have the covid vaccine (unless advised not to for medical reasons) they should be prepared to not have treatment if/when they get covid. They knew the risks and made their choice.
This. Or they should have to pay for any treatment required because the alternative was offered to them for free on the NHS. At this point it's not like there aren't plenty of cases around the world of people who chose not to be vaccinated against covid and subsequently suffered serious illness or even died.
herecomesthsun · 06/12/2021 12:28

From the Guardian feed today. Can't find current stats for the whole nation though, but this is an insight from one consultant,

"Covid cases that end up in ICU could take 'up to five years before they reach normal lives again'
Critical care consultant Dr Zudin Puthucheary said it could be five years before Covid-19 intensive care unit (ICU) patients “reach their normal lives again”.

The member of the Intensive Care Society Council in the UK raised concerns that there are not enough staff to rehabilitate patients who are treated in ICUs.

PA Media quotes him telling Sky News: “People who have chosen to be unvaccinated make up the vast majority of patients on the intensive care unit at the moment, and certainly most of our pregnant patients are unvaccinated.

These are the young people – the vast majority of them do survive, 60% of our patients are currently surviving. But that survival comes with a huge cost and that needs rehabilitation. We don’t have the staff, have the resources to rehabilitate these patients, and it may be up to five years before they reach their normal lives again.

“But 40% of these people are dying, and they don’t need to die had they been vaccinated.”

Asked about winter pressures on the NHS, he said: “Things aren’t great in hospitals right now. As we gear up for winter, we have intensive care units that are full, wards that are full and a dropping number of stuff.”"

PastMyBestBeforeDate · 06/12/2021 12:30

This is so depressing. Whilst I am not in favour of compulsory vaccination or refusing treatment solely on vaccination status, I do wonder what will happen in the event that capacity is reached and medics have to decide who to treat.
I'm triple jabbed but I have a chronic non-life limiting condition which is 'treated' by immunosuppressant that make the jab minimally effective. Should I be treated in preference to a 25 year old anti-vaxxer with no health conditions?

churchofthepoisonmind · 06/12/2021 12:31

I’m usually pretty liberal but where this is concerned I’m beginning to feel quite strongly that if someone is prepared to not have the covid vaccine (unless advised not to for medical reasons) they should be prepared to not have treatment if/when they get covid. They knew the risks and made their choice.
How many times does it need saying. If we are talking about lifestyle choices, we have to be consistent so the same should therefore also go for obesity, alcoholics, people who pursue risky sports eg rock climbing, and so on. All are people making a poor lifestyle choice which ultimately places strain on the NHS.
This really is basic stuff, it should not need explaining.

ForTheLoveOfSleep · 06/12/2021 12:32

[quote thepeopleversuswork]@bumbleymummy

Flu can also hospitalise and kill young, fit people. The rates for that group are comparable.

This is simply not true.

From the British Medical Journal:

Are there more deaths from flu than from covid?
Data from the Office for National Statistics show that in England and Wales the number of deaths from influenza was 1598 in 2018 and 1223 in 2019.1 This is way below the annual deaths from covid-19, which at the current rate of around 800 deaths a week in England and Wales equates to more than 40 000 a year.2[/quote]
But do these stats include deaths caused by flu within 28 days of a positive flu test? Or just deaths caused directly by influenza?

herecomesthsun · 06/12/2021 12:34

Dr Dhruv Parekh, a consultant in critical care at the University Hospitals Birmingham trust, which has Europe’s largest critical care unit with 100 intensive care beds across a whole floor of the Queen Elizabeth Hospital, said:...

Covid patients had a significantly longer length of stay in critical care than other patients, with an average of nine days; longer if they survived the infection. In his unit he said this meant that as many as 100 to 140 other surgeries, which would require stays of only one or two days, had to be delayed each week.

“These are transplants that can’t go ahead. These are patients waiting for complex cancer surgery where every week counts. It could tip them over from an operable cancer to an inoperable cancer,” he said.

Between July and November, NHS England said that 150 patients were referred for extracorporeal membrane oxygenation, or Ecmo, where blood is cycled through an artificial lung machine before returning it to the body. Of these patients, only 6 per cent had been fully vaccinated.

The treatment is usually reserved for younger patients and is a last-ditch effort to buy their bodies time to recover from the virus.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/doctors-and-nurses-vent-anger-as-unvaccinated-covid-cases-delay-vital-operations-z3zchvv9l?shareToken=1f6f931336c8b8af741d20be581114ca

BananaBlue · 06/12/2021 12:37

[quote violetskiss]@AndreaC67

There is no like for like comparison with European health systems - they run completely differently (hence why they’re better.) Nowhere else has a National Health Service.[/quote]
What’s the difference that makes European health care better incomparison?

How does the funding source (NI v’s private ins) improve the care?

Genuine question as I don’t understand how privatisation will improve the NHS for the whole population esp when so many services are already in/directly privatised.

NdujaWannaDance · 06/12/2021 12:37

hamstersarse

<strong>The thread is utter propaganda bollocks</strong>

<strong>Currently:</strong>

<strong>6,639 cases</strong>

2,355 unvaccinated 35.47%
3,998 vaccinated 60.21%

<strong>If you are going to go after the unvaccinated, at least maintain your integrity while you do it (i.e. not lie)</strong>

Cases. Cases means very little. No-one ever promised the vaccine would give us all 100% immunity from catching it. If we continue to keep up the routine testing we'll be finding cases forever. It's serious illness, hospitalisations and deaths that matter now - not cases. We are all, at any given time, carrying all sorts of viruses and less than ideal gut bacteria that we don't know about, because we don't endlessly test to find them.

The people who are still dying from this virus in spite of being double vaxxed are, in the main, people who are already very medically compromised and/or very elderly. They may be dying with covid, rather than of it. Or in spite of the vaccine, Covid is exacerbating their existing life limiting conditions and hastening their inevitable death from them.

The fact remains that 90% of people needing ICU treatment for Covid since July have been UNVACCINATED.

The UK vaccination programme started in earnest back in Jan/Feb as I recall? Which means that the vast majority of people considered higher risk on grounds of age or health would have been offered at least one vax by July and most certainly by November.

So no-one is lying. You just have a fundamental problem with comprehension, or you are being deliberately obtuse.

Unsure33 · 06/12/2021 12:38

@StealthPolarBear

I said this at the time, what on earth was the point of building the nightingale hospitals? They were going to save us, and yet they didn't because as many others have pointed out, there are not enough staff. When whoever planned to build them, what were their plans to staff them?
because they asked retired staff and army medics to help
milkyaqua · 06/12/2021 12:39

Nearly 2022 and people are still spouting 'with not of'... I'd call that a fundamental problem with comprehension, or else too much sand in the head.

EnidSpyton · 06/12/2021 12:43

@WoodyGd and @milkyaqua

Your comments -

Repeating again for truth. Also repeating doubly for truth:

All so some thicko can practice his or her right to not be vaccinated. It’s disgusting.

  • are what is disgusting. This 'othering' rhetoric is what is disgusting.

You do realise this is how Fascist governments gain power, don't you?

Pit people against one another, allow them to dehumanise each other by putting in place hierarchies of those who have more 'value' as human beings than others. Hitler did this with the Jews, remember. Within living memory, too. Yet history teaches us that history teaches us nothing.

EVERYONE should have the right, for WHATEVER reason, to refuse medical treatment they don't want.

That is a fundamental human right.

Regardless of what impact that has on others, if we don't have the right to have choice over our own bodies, we are in dangerous territory.

The number of unvaccinated people in Western society is small compared to the proportion of vaccinated people.

Conversely, the number of unvaccinated people in developing countries compared to vaccinated is massive.

THAT is what will perpetuate covid. Not the small numbers of unvaccinated people in the West.

I don't see a whole host of you on this thread giving any shits about the Africans, Indians, and other brown people who are being left to die while we hoard enough vaccines to jab everyone three times over.

Until we pull together as a whole world to ensure the majority of people worldwide are vaccinated, this won't end. The Delta variant came out of India - a largely unvaccinated country. The omicron variant has come out of Africa - a largely unvaccinated continent. Jim next door blocking a bed in ICU because he's scared of the vaccine isn't going to make one jot of difference to ending this pandemic while a billion Jims in Africa still haven't even been offered a first vaccine.

Honestly, people like you are no better than the antivaxxers for whom you are filled with such contempt. Your hatred for them is entirely selfish. You are not better than them. You want them to have the vaccine because you want YOUR freedom. Everyone's motives here are selfish. Don't pretend you got the vaccine to save the world. You got it for you. All this self righteous performative altruism is sickening. What did any of you lot ever do for anyone else before Covid, I wonder?

More tolerance and understanding would go a long way towards ending this pandemic more quickly, because the current rhetoric is only entrenching people more firmly in their own camps. Flinging around hatred and bigotry gets us nowhere.

NdujaWannaDance · 06/12/2021 12:43

[quote bumbleymummy]@NdujaWannaDance

You really have to move away from the ‘doing your bit’ narrative. The vaccine does not prevent infection/transmission. If a young, healthy person decides that they don’t want the vaccine abd contract the virus they are still ‘doing their bit’ by contributing to immunity in the population. And studies show that to be broad and durable in the majority.[/quote]
I disagree. Because that young healthy person has a choice to risk becoming ill and against all odds ending up very ill, needing hospital treatment, versus just having the jab, in which case the chances *hover small they were before) of becoming seriously ill are greatly diminished.

And I understand that the vaccine does not prevent infection or transmission, but I believe it does greatly reduce it? Certainly more so than being unvaccinated. All the while loads of seemingly fit and healthy people are walking around unvaxxed in the belief that they are low risk and not posing any risk to vaccinated people, they are colluding in a game of Russian Roulette that will see some of them die unnecessarily.

SofiaMichelle · 06/12/2021 12:43

@hamstersarse

The thread is utter propaganda bollocks

Currently:

6,639 cases
2,355 unvaccinated 35.47%
3,998 vaccinated 60.21%

If you are going to go after the unvaccinated, at least maintain your integrity while you do it (i.e. not lie)

If this were the other way round (e.g. adverse events) the thread would be reported and deleted for misinformation

🤦🏻‍♀️
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