90% of ICU patients admitted with COVID haven't been vaccinated.

[Desithebulldog]

Been listening to the news and they've said that 90% of the patients admitted to ICU with COVID haven't been vaccinated. For each patient admitted they are denying 10 other patients who need surgery their ICU beds. So currently (I'm sure there are more) there are 1,000 patients holding up 10,000 operations. I find this absolutely gobsmacking. Why, why, why would people not get vaccinated to help the NHS? They are on their knees and need all the help they can get. I know it's a personal choice but why are all the non-believers making it so hard for others to get a much needed operation? I just don't get it.

“We're a fat country who can't be arsed to exercise and drink far too much. This is just another example of people not taking responsibility for their own health and adding to the load, only this time it's ICU that's getting hit.”
The thing is in a country with free healthcare people are more likely to just rely on the health system dealing with their poor choices. If you live somewhere where you have to pay a lot for healthcare and always pay 10 per cent yourself, then you are more incentivised to look after your body/health and value that health service. You are also more incentivised to only go to the doctor with serious issues and to sort minor issues out yourself

Well you just need to look to the USA to disprove all of this! Healthcare is appalling expensive, people can run out of insurance (if they can afford it in the first place) and end up bankrupted by healthcare costs. Yet also appalling levels of morbid obesity.

The causes of obesity are really complex. the individual solutions to obesity are really hard to implement. Most people don't like being obese. Its not a lot of fun.
Stop comparing obesity to refusing to take a free vaccine that has been organised for you. Its nothing NOTHING like the same.

@Lostinacloud

From Sky News this morning. Are we really all still wearing masks and facing endless restrictions on personal interaction and travel and listening to the doom mongering death figures everyday for a cold? I saw a recent study going back years which suggested that almost 50% of all deaths each winter season can be linked to a winter respiratory virus. It affects the same populations as Covid and yet we’ve never closed our whole world down before. It’s getting ridiculous and we all need to move on.

I don't think you've understood this article at all, have you?

We're not talking about "winter respiratory virus", we're talking about something which may present as a "winter respiratory virus" but which may in fact prove to be a manifestation of a much more serious virus and one which does have the potential to hospitalise or kill many more people. Including young, fit people.

@Squleamish

Apparently the latest HSA data show that 36% of current covid hospitalisations are now unvaccinated. This is greater than the proportion unvaccinated in the general population (depending on how you define and measure it), so still suggests a benefit. But nowhere near what the 90% figure would have us believe.

One set of data relates to hospitalisations as a whole. The other to ICU occupancy. They're different things.

@NdujaWannaDance and @Cam77 - yes, this.

We need full, transparent data release from the ONS. With any luck this can confirm vaccine effectiveness, and tell us who is most at risk. Releasing improverished or non-transparent data helps no one. WHY is this still happening?

@Mincepiepoptarts

The blame for the collapse of the NHS continues to be placed at the door of the dirty, diseased, thick antivaxxers. I read yesterday that it was their fault that cancer patients are missing vital operations. With lots of sanctimonious sound bites from the nurses and doctors lowering themselves to treat them who clearly feel they are going above and beyond.

Looking forward to next week’s headlines about how climate change is actually the fault of unvaccinated people.

I am vaccinated. But I am sickened by the demonisation and persecution of people who have chosen not to have the vaccine, as is their right.

Which is why i think it's important to have in-depth and accurate data made public about the those who are now being hospitalized and are dying.

I want to know how many of the unvaxxed fall into a category that makes them known to be more vulnerable.

I understand it is a young, fit, healthy person's 'right' to chose not to have the vaxx. What I don't understand is why they'd chose not to have it, given that they are young fit and healthy. It's highly unlikely to harm them long term, just as Covid is highly unlikely to harm them long term. But Covid is more likely to harm them, and very likely to harm plenty of other people. So doing your bit to help us all stay safe and get back to normal is surely not that big an ask?

And as for people who already know they fall into a higher risk category but still won't have it, well I have nothing but contempt for them.

[quote Squleamish]@godmum56

no they can't because they incubate mutations

Unfortunately, this is just completely untrue. It's even possible that the opposite may be true (selection for mutations in spike protein coding genes may be accelerated for the vaccinated). And we've known for a very long time that rates of infection in the vaccinated are high, and that infected people seem to be equally infectious to others whether or not they have been vaccinated. It's a shame, but the vaccines are just not effective on transmission, or - most likely - development of mutant variants. This is broadly accepted, even by most of the most vaccine-enthusiastic scientists and politicians, now. The media have yet to catch up.[/quote]
@Squieamish
www.nebraskamed.com/COVID/are-leaky-vaccines-causing-the-new-covid-19-mutations

www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-mutations-vaccine-idUSL1N2OZ1PU

newsnetwork.mayoclinic.org/discussion/how-emerging-variants-could-affect-covid-19-testing-vaccines-and-spread/

would be interested to see your links.......baseline is if a virus can't replicate it can't mutate.....

Pyewackect

But yes , 90% are unvaccinated and we’ve had two emergency C sections on our unit ( unheard of before ). The babies were OK, sadly one of the mothers didn’t make it.

And do you happen to know whether that mother fell into a category that is known to be more vulnerable to serious illness or death from Covid?

It it not the young and healthy, whether vaxxed or unvaxxed, that are driving deaths and hospitalizations.

Rather than the disgusting name calling on here, should focus not be on how those who are unvaccinated but high risk or have underlying health conditions, can be supported and encouraged (not coerced!) into vaccination?

With a non-sterilizing vaccine, we will continue to get variants albeit potentially at a slower rate. And ultimately do we not want the virus to mutate so it becomes a more mild variant?

As throughout this thread you've tried to deflect from the current issue, which is anti vaxxers. Why is that?
Alas, if you think I haven't had my vaccinations hence my comments, then I'd be disappointing you. Had both.

I don't think that's why other countries are mandating it. We are the ones with the Sacred Cow NHS which is largely a laughing stock abroad. I lived in another European country for a long time, and the health system was far better than ours. There was also a much clearer link between paying for it and receiving the services (we seem to think that the NHS is "free" because we don't actually see the money that funds it leave our accounts).

Completely agree.

@Pyewackect Actually it came from the hospital reports and yes I do believe that rather than some person on social media claiming they work in ICU. Plus looking at ONS stats and PHE stats (when you don't go from 1st Jan) it doesn't stack up that 90% of people in ICU's right now are unvaccinated. Neither are deaths running at that rate (even when proportioned out for % of population vax/unvax) so either more unvaccinated are recovering than vaccinated or "your" ICU is an anomaly.
Stories like this just make people even more distrusting

Can't be bothered to read this whole thread but here's an article debunking the 90% figure:
www.statsjamie.co.uk/hospital/

[quote MaxNormal]Can't be bothered to read this whole thread but here's an article debunking the 90% figure:
www.statsjamie.co.uk/hospital/[/quote]
Can't be bothered to read it.

@Awakened22

It it not the young and healthy, whether vaxxed or unvaxxed, that are driving deaths and hospitalizations.

Rather than the disgusting name calling on here, should focus not be on how those who are unvaccinated but high risk or have underlying health conditions, can be supported and encouraged (not coerced!) into vaccination?

With a non-sterilizing vaccine, we will continue to get variants albeit potentially at a slower rate. And ultimately do we not want the virus to mutate so it becomes a more mild variant?

Yes. When I looked at the NHS approved Oxford Uni risk calculator if I lose 10 kgs my risk of dying from Covid reduces by 30% !! I'm already losing weight but will keep going having looked at the figures.

@MrsBerthaRochester

In Germany and France the majority of folk ARE vaccinated. France also had vaccine passports restricting freedom of movement to those not vaccinated. Yet the numbers across Europe are increasing? Riddle me this? ICU full of young folk? Absolute nonsense. Its simply not true no matter what narrative the government try to push.

No, Germany has vaccination rates similar to the UK. There are also areas with a considerably smaller uptake such as southern Saxony (56%).

But I am sickened by the demonisation and persecution of people who have chosen not to have the vaccine, as is their right.

Why on earth has this become about the "right" of an individual to be a selfish fucker? That's how fucking politicized this issue has become.

Chances are they'll end up suffering for their "personal choice" sooner or later. If I had the power to do it, I would not hold up someone's lifesaving surgery because some twat read a twitter thread and thought they now knew better than medical science.

I'd have respect for them if they also exercised their right to not clog up NHS hospital beds and stayed home, put their money where their loud ignorance-spreading mouths are.

@howdiditcometothis666 amazing, well done!!

@GatoradeMeBitch

But I am sickened by the demonisation and persecution of people who have chosen not to have the vaccine, as is their right.

Why on earth has this become about the "right" of an individual to be a selfish fucker? That's how fucking politicized this issue has become.

Chances are they'll end up suffering for their "personal choice" sooner or later. If I had the power to do it, I would not hold up someone's lifesaving surgery because some twat read a twitter thread and thought they now knew better than medical science.

I'd have respect for them if they also exercised their right to not clog up NHS hospital beds and stayed home, put their money where their loud ignorance-spreading mouths are.

People have been selfishly abusing themselves and clogging up Hospitals for decades, its nothing new - how many on here, having a go, drink too much, take little exercise, eat crap, drive everywhere and have a moan at runners or cyclists?

Fundamentally, people have the right to refuse a medical procedure - i think they are nuts but education & leadership are the keys here.

@SofiaMichelle I live in the U.K. the majority are vaccinated. Most covid patients in hospital are vaccinated (mainly elderly who can’t even be discharged after recovery because there is nowhere for them to go). Over 80% of people in ICU at the moment are overweight/obese. Why not get angry at them? The NHS is trying desperately to catch up after last year’s lockdown. Sorry to hear that your mum is still waiting and clearly you’re upset about that but you’re directing your anger at the wrong people. As a pp posted out, the government must love that - people pointing the finger of blame at the ‘others’ rather than at them.

But I am sickened by the demonisation and persecution of people who have chosen not to have the vaccine, as is their right.

Because these people are putting their "rights" over their responsibilities to the rest of society.

There's always a trade-off between right and responsibility in a civilized society. No-one's "rights" as an individual cannot be allowed to be given unbridled priority over the rights of the whole of society.

The trouble with funding the NHS, IMO, is that ‘free at the point of use’ has become such a sacred cow, no government of whatever colour will dare risk votes by tampering with it.

In certain other European countries, you do pay something at the point of use. In Sweden (so a Swedish friend tells me). everybody pays a small amount for GP and A&E visits, for prescriptions (with an annual cap for anyone who needs a lot) and for the ‘board’ element of hospital stays.

And Sweden is not known for being a low income tax country.

As for free prescriptions in the U.K. I’ve known elderly people who could well have afforded to pay a small amount, who utterly took the piss with masses of duplicate items they that were stockpiled (I once counted over 60 items in a friend’s bathroom) and ultimately thrown away. I read somewhere that every prescription item costs £7 in admin alone. I dare say that if such people had to pay even say £3 per item, they’d think twice about such wanton expensive waste.

With regard to Germany aside from Saxony ,areas of Bavaria such as Berechtesgaden have an vaccination rates of only 56 per cent .80 percent of patients in ICU are not vaccinated .Today in Berechtesgaderland there are 19 ICU beds available , 17 of them are occupied. This is a ski area /holiday area .There is no room should there be any accident on the Autobahn or on the slopes .

[quote MaxNormal]Can't be bothered to read this whole thread but here's an article debunking the 90% figure:
www.statsjamie.co.uk/hospital/[/quote]
Maybe you should read it. He states that the data he has does not give a break down of vaccinated vs unvaccinated in ICU, so his 'debunking' is actually based on assumptions.

He says this "If two-thirds of patients going into hospital are vaccinated, it would be remarkable if for those who then required critical care it was the majority unvaccinated"

It's not remarkable at all if the unvaccinated then go on to become more seriously ill.

@thepeopleversuswork

“ a much more serious virus and one which does have the potential to hospitalise or kill many more people. Including young, fit people”

Flu can also hospitalise and kill young, fit people. The rates for that group are comparable.

@NdujaWannaDance

You really have to move away from the ‘doing your bit’ narrative. The vaccine does not prevent infection/transmission. If a young, healthy person decides that they don’t want the vaccine abd contract the virus they are still ‘doing their bit’ by contributing to immunity in the population. And studies show that to be broad and durable in the majority.