90% of ICU patients admitted with COVID haven't been vaccinated.

[Desithebulldog]

Been listening to the news and they've said that 90% of the patients admitted to ICU with COVID haven't been vaccinated. For each patient admitted they are denying 10 other patients who need surgery their ICU beds. So currently (I'm sure there are more) there are 1,000 patients holding up 10,000 operations. I find this absolutely gobsmacking. Why, why, why would people not get vaccinated to help the NHS? They are on their knees and need all the help they can get. I know it's a personal choice but why are all the non-believers making it so hard for others to get a much needed operation? I just don't get it.

@NdujaWannaDance
If we now know which people are most likely to be badly affected by covid then I think it should be hammered home daily in a roll call of deaths and we should get to know whether their were underlying health issues or known risk factors (diabetes, morbid obesity, kidney problems, etc etc)

That raises a very valid point. Why is there still seemingly so little known about who is getting very sick and for what reasons? In particular, of we knew the reasons why a very small proportion of seemingly “healthy” young/middle age people get very sick, then those at risk could be advised/isolated/treated etc. while the other 99%+ of the working age population could just get on with things.

@Carboncheque

From the ONS

’ In 2017, the UK spent £2,989 per person on healthcare, which was around the median for members of the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development: OECD (£2,913 per person).
However, of the G7 group of large, developed economies, UK healthcare spending per person was the second-lowest, with the highest spenders being France (£3,737), Germany (£4,432) and the United States (£7,736).’

Those figures include private healthcare and money spent by individuals. Hence why the USA is so high.

After reading this thread I now understand why so countries are mandating vaccines in their droves.

There are a number of issues around confidentiality of patient information that might interfere with that.

Well there are some ways around that. The data can be compiled and presented without referencing people's actual identities. We can still know ages, ethnicities, BMI, whether there were other aggravating factors present such as diabetes, down Sydrome, or other life limiting conditions, and whether or not they were vaccinated and if not whether they refused to be or were medically unable to be. That's just data. The NHS already releases data on patients anonymously - hence why we know this figure of 90% of patients with covid needing ICU are unvaccinated now.

As for identifying them, they were readily identified before the vaccine so why not now? I guess how much background info is released is entirely up to the next of kin.

@NdujaWannaDance

The NHS isn’t under-funded - it’s a system totally inappropriate for this country in the 21st century. No amount of funding would help it, no amount of vaccinations or people losing weight. It doesn’t work, it has very poor health outcomes. Bleating on that it’s underfunded when actually governments are just pouring more and more money into it is just wilfully ignorant. We need to engage with the fact that we must look to European healthcare models to improve our country’s health.

Completely 100% agree. Those who keep bleating about Tory underfunding are sticking their heads in the sand. The sooner the NHS is radically overhauled the better.

The NHS has been over hauled numerous times, costing billions and getting us no where.

But the bottom line is that 110k staff shortages, far less beds, scanners and Doctors and to address this costs money.

We have raised tuition fees to £9.250k, removed bursaries, privatised great chunks of the NHS and under funded by 1 to 2% p.a. over the last 40 years, compared to European health systems.

The MSOA data is restricted because of confidentiality issues in some instances, for example; what you suggest is more identifying than that.

@AndreaC67

There is no like for like comparison with European health systems - they run completely differently (hence why they’re better.) Nowhere else has a National Health Service.

There is a difference between a fit and healthy 25 year old and an overweight, 60 year old smoker. I’d bet my house that it wouldn’t be the former taking up ICU beds!

It’s not healthy young people clogging up the beds, that’s a fact.

The 25 year old isn’t really taking a gamble with their life, if they chose to not vaccinate but the overweight, 60 year old smoker is.

If the latter decides not to vaccinate then they are likely to need intervention. They are the ones that should be vaccinated.

I don’t know what the answer but it goes back to the same argument, it doesn’t kill young healthy people. If you don’t fall in to that category then you need to vaccinate yourself because it’s causing a fucking nightmare for everyone else.

Having said that though, not vaccinating yourself, because you’re healthy and young, is fair enough on the one hand, but it will contribute to the transmission.

The problem then, is the unhealthy older folk that also chose not to vaccinate (despite likely needing care) low and behold get really poorly, wish they’d got vaccinated, then spend weeks in hospital blocking beds for everyone else.

If you have a car crash regardless of age, there’s a real possibility that an ambulance wouldn’t get there or there’d be no room in ICU. That’s the problem for younger people. That’s my concern for fit healthy young people. Though I suspect the doctors wouldn’t let a healthy 40 year old die due to a lack of beds but you wouldn’t want to chance it….

Those per head of population funding figures make three things very clear.

1. the NHS is underfunded for the job it has to do
2. but even if you massively increased its funding overnight (and magicked up a supply of trained personnel to be bought with that funding) it still wouldn't be able to cope with unrestricted Covid because Germany's can't.
3. if you privatise the NHS badly then you'll probably end up spending twice as much money on healthcare but have even worse outcomes.

If we split the population into who has been vaccinated and who hasn't, isn't it a greater percentage of the group who haven't been vaccinated that are in hospital. So in a group of 100, 20 haven't been vaccinated, and if there are 10 people in hospital, 8 of whom haven't been vaccinated, it's a much greater proportion of the unvaccinated population that are in hospital.

From Sky News this morning. Are we really all still wearing masks and facing endless restrictions on personal interaction and travel and listening to the doom mongering death figures everyday for a cold?
I saw a recent study going back years which suggested that almost 50% of all deaths each winter season can be linked to a winter respiratory virus. It affects the same populations as Covid and yet we’ve never closed our whole world down before. It’s getting ridiculous and we all need to move on.

I've seen this doing the rounds but it's in fact taken from very old data at a point in time where the vaccine roll-out was not complete. The percentages look very different now.
Please don't post inaccurate information, it's not helpful.

The figures are from July to November. By July the majority of people in a category that would make them more vulnerable were vaccinated at least once, if not twice. Only fit and healthy young were still waiting. My DC in their early 20s dragged their heels over getting the first vax, not because of being anti-vax, just because they are low risk and lazy/disorganised, but even they were both vaxxed at least once by September.

So out of interest, what do the percentages look like now, and how do you have information from the NHS that the rest of us don't have?

You think it's inaccurate to say that the unvaccinated are taking up most of the covid ICU beds now?

@araiwa

It's like the vaccine is effective....

no shit sherlock?

In Germany and France the majority of folk ARE vaccinated. France also had vaccine passports restricting freedom of movement to those not vaccinated. Yet the numbers across Europe are increasing? Riddle me this?
ICU full of young folk? Absolute nonsense. Its simply not true no matter what narrative the government try to push.

@Starcup

There is a difference between a fit and healthy 25 year old and an overweight, 60 year old smoker. I’d bet my house that it wouldn’t be the former taking up ICU beds!

It’s not healthy young people clogging up the beds, that’s a fact.

The 25 year old isn’t really taking a gamble with their life, if they chose to not vaccinate but the overweight, 60 year old smoker is.

If the latter decides not to vaccinate then they are likely to need intervention. They are the ones that should be vaccinated.

I don’t know what the answer but it goes back to the same argument, it doesn’t kill young healthy people. If you don’t fall in to that category then you need to vaccinate yourself because it’s causing a fucking nightmare for everyone else.

Having said that though, not vaccinating yourself, because you’re healthy and young, is fair enough on the one hand, but it will contribute to the transmission.

The problem then, is the unhealthy older folk that also chose not to vaccinate (despite likely needing care) low and behold get really poorly, wish they’d got vaccinated, then spend weeks in hospital blocking beds for everyone else.

If you have a car crash regardless of age, there’s a real possibility that an ambulance wouldn’t get there or there’d be no room in ICU. That’s the problem for younger people. That’s my concern for fit healthy young people. Though I suspect the doctors wouldn’t let a healthy 40 year old die due to a lack of beds but you wouldn’t want to chance it….

point missed here....those unvaccinated young fit and healthy are more likely to spread it and more likely to incubate mutations....and while the stats ARE much lower, some of them DO get covid badly enough to end up in hospital and DO go on and get long covid.

@MrsBerthaRochester

In Germany and France the majority of folk ARE vaccinated. France also had vaccine passports restricting freedom of movement to those not vaccinated. Yet the numbers across Europe are increasing? Riddle me this? ICU full of young folk? Absolute nonsense. Its simply not true no matter what narrative the government try to push.

In Germany and France a greater majority of the overall population is vaccinated, but they don’t have such good coverage in older, vulnerable age groups, which is concealed in the overall stats by having vaccinated teenagers earlier. You can have every single 12 year old vaccinated but if you’re only at 80% of your over 70s then yes, hospitals will be under pressure.

@NdujaWannaDance

*I've seen this doing the rounds but it's in fact taken from very old data at a point in time where the vaccine roll-out was not complete. The percentages look very different now. Please don't post inaccurate information, it's not helpful.*

The figures are from July to November. By July the majority of people in a category that would make them more vulnerable were vaccinated at least once, if not twice. Only fit and healthy young were still waiting. My DC in their early 20s dragged their heels over getting the first vax, not because of being anti-vax, just because they are low risk and lazy/disorganised, but even they were both vaxxed at least once by September.

So out of interest, what do the percentages look like now, and how do you have information from the NHS that the rest of us don't have?

You think it's inaccurate to say that the unvaccinated are taking up most of the covid ICU beds now?

Apparently the latest HSA data show that 36% of current covid hospitalisations are now unvaccinated. This is greater than the proportion unvaccinated in the general population (depending on how you define and measure it), so still suggests a benefit. But nowhere near what the 90% figure would have us believe.

[quote Cam77]@NdujaWannaDance
If we now know which people are most likely to be badly affected by covid then I think it should be hammered home daily in a roll call of deaths and we should get to know whether their were underlying health issues or known risk factors (diabetes, morbid obesity, kidney problems, etc etc)

That raises a very valid point. Why is there still seemingly so little known about who is getting very sick and for what reasons? In particular, of we knew the reasons why a very small proportion of seemingly “healthy” young/middle age people get very sick, then those at risk could be advised/isolated/treated etc. while the other 99%+ of the working age population could just get on with things.[/quote]
no they can't because they incubate mutations

Cam

That raises a very valid point. Why is there still seemingly so little known about who is getting very sick and for what reasons? In particular, of we knew the reasons why a very small proportion of seemingly “healthy” young/middle age people get very sick, then those at risk could be advised/isolated/treated etc. while the other 99%+ of the working age population could just get on with things.

I think the NHS do know who (on the whole) is still getting very sick and dying. They are just reluctant to break it down for us, because it might make uncomfortable reading and they don't want to divide into the deserving and undeserving sick. It's politically incorrect and sensitive.

But I say sod that, we are grown ups, just just tell us the truth about who were are all continuing to protect with ongoing restrictions and why. Are they deserving of it? Medically vulnerable and unable to have the vaccine? Double jabbed but still at risk because they are so medically vulnerable? In which case they should take steps to continue to isolate and protect themselves (and I would hope that they are).

Or are they just stubborn and slightly stupid people who know they fall into a high risk demographic but are so are caught up in some ridiculous conspiracy theory that they'd rather leave themselves wide open to being very ill or dying.

@Lostinacloud

From Sky News this morning. Are we really all still wearing masks and facing endless restrictions on personal interaction and travel and listening to the doom mongering death figures everyday for a cold? I saw a recent study going back years which suggested that almost 50% of all deaths each winter season can be linked to a winter respiratory virus. It affects the same populations as Covid and yet we’ve never closed our whole world down before. It’s getting ridiculous and we all need to move on.

No: we're facing restrictions for a disease which can manifest with cold-like symptoms in some people but be very dangerous in others.

Yes that is also true of RSV but the ratio of deaths and hospitalisation to infection is significantly higher for Covid 19 than for RSV - which is why it threatens the medical systems of every country in the world with collapse if left uncontrolled.

@Lostinacloud

From Sky News this morning. Are we really all still wearing masks and facing endless restrictions on personal interaction and travel and listening to the doom mongering death figures everyday for a cold? I saw a recent study going back years which suggested that almost 50% of all deaths each winter season can be linked to a winter respiratory virus. It affects the same populations as Covid and yet we’ve never closed our whole world down before. It’s getting ridiculous and we all need to move on.

Instead of selectively searching for things to back up your wholly incorrect theories, maybe watch Prof Tim's vlogs which come out weekly for ZOE Covid study.

He isn't saying it's a cold, he's talking about mild symptoms some people have and is frustrated that the NHS/govt guidance still talks about the original Wuhan variant symptoms as being the ones to look out for rather than the most common ones (which aren't fever, etc.)

To make it simple:
Some people get mild symptoms just like having a cold. They think it's not COVID because the advice has never changed regarding the key symptoms to look out for - fever, cough, etc - and so they carry on as normal, spreading COVID around to others who get seriously ill.

Everyone making excuses about why people can't have the vaccine - those who actually can't are a tiny proportion of those who won't. You'd have thought that those who won't might have spotted by now that actually the rest of us haven't been taken over by 5g or whatever it is that they fear. The day I heard that one of our specialist hospitals has an ICU full of Covid patients rather than the heart patients who should be there was the day I lost patience with the refuseniks. It's a public duty to have the vaccine, surely?

@Madhairday

Yes OP, and as a direct result of this, my dear friend died. Heart operation repeatedly cancelled due to lack of ITU beds. It's heartbreaking that this is being repeated all over the country, and baffling that unvaccinated people refuse to see it or acknowledge it (you even see the minimising on this thread with the quibbling over dates in the light of up to date evidence as well as mass anecdotal evidence from HCPs working in the thick of it. I'm lost with it all. But nothing will change their minds, I've realised this.

Yes it's so weird. And trying to derail the thread with irrelevancies about the general state of the NHS. We ALL know the NHS is in trouble. Even MORE reason to take the pressure off as much as we can.

I'm so sorry about your friend.

But you're right, anti vaxxers will ignore the 98% of evidence supporting vaccination and leap on the crackpots, naysayers and tiny amount of vaccine adverse events (completely ignoring the Covid adverse events). It's not just young people who aren't being vaccinated. It's older, overweight people with underlying conditions. What's wrong with them.

[quote violetskiss]@AndreaC67

There is no like for like comparison with European health systems - they run completely differently (hence why they’re better.) Nowhere else has a National Health Service.[/quote]
Thats not true, Spain, Italy and Portugal have very similar systems, as is the NZ.
Scandanavian countries also have an almost 100% tax payer funded systems, i had the mis fortune to have to go to a Swedish hospital and it would put a BUPA hospital to shame.

No one can say the NHS doesn't need to improve but money is what pays for nurses, buildings and equipment.

100s of billions have been taken out of our public services since 2010, this has consequence.

@godmum56

no they can't because they incubate mutations

Unfortunately, this is just completely untrue. It's even possible that the opposite may be true (selection for mutations in spike protein coding genes may be accelerated for the vaccinated). And we've known for a very long time that rates of infection in the vaccinated are high, and that infected people seem to be equally infectious to others whether or not they have been vaccinated. It's a shame, but the vaccines are just not effective on transmission, or - most likely - development of mutant variants. This is broadly accepted, even by most of the most vaccine-enthusiastic scientists and politicians, now. The media have yet to catch up.