Germany bans unvaccinated from shops and pubs.

[Ratched]

We really are going to end up with a two tier society. It's actually quite worrying.

I am NOT anti vaxx, just concerned at how we are sleep walking into giving away our hard won freedoms.

@nojudgementhere

I find that - genuinely - really interesting, because to me, nudging seems more sinister! I think a mandate is a relatively 'open' situation; if the public hates it, they can vote the government out and send a strong message that it isn't acceptable. Nudging, imo, is worrying because it's covert.

I don't think you can look at the two things in isolation though @Innocenta. In my opinion, the only reason we've got to a stage where people would even consider vaccine mandates or locking up just the unvaccinated as being reasonable or proportionate is the constant drip, drip, drip of the press stories and manipulation of figures we've all been subjected to.

It is not a 'pandemic of the unvaccinated' and the unvaccinated are not taking up a vast proportion of beds or dying in larger numbers but this is what is being reported almost daily in an attempt to try and turn everyone against them. This othering & labelling people as 'unclean' or 'selfish' lacks nuance and is ethically very wrong.

Good post.

I have asked you twice now to discuss the issue of ethics and mandatory vaccination and you have ignored that

Quite the contrary, @Lilifer - I did not ignore you. I said this:

Please put any question you actually want me to spend time on in clear and non-meretricious terms. Thank you! I will engage with good faith questions and challenges, as before.

As far as I am concerned, this entire thread is about ethics and mandatory vaccination. I have stated my position clearly and extensively. I am willing to engage with further good faith questions, but I'm not aware you have put one to me. If you do, I will answer (barring being too unwell, as my current medical situation is not settled/stable, so I cannot promise anything 100%).

I don’t believe there has been ‘manipulation’, ‘coercion’ or ‘fear’ tactics used.

@WinterKit - Really? I'd be surpised if you can say that with a straight face! Earlier there was a lovely little piece in the Evening Standard by Jack Kessler calling for the unvaccinated to be fined and using some highly doubtful facts and figures in corroboration. This is just one of many pieces I've seen over the last few days ramping up fear and hatred towards the unvaccinated by inaccurately suggesting they are massively outnumbering the vaccinated in hospitals. Why this allowed I don't know & why you would try to defend it is equally mysterious to me - but there you go!

@WinterKit - Also, I think it makes perfect sense that governments would try to nudge their citizens into laying all the blame at the feet of the unvaccinated and treating them as scapegoats for everything that is currently going wrong.This way they're far more likely to not have to answer questions about why their health services are now crumbling (eve with the comparably high vaccination rates) after the two years they've had to prepare.

@WinterKit

When it’s referred to as a ‘drip drip’ manipulation, it infers that there is some sort of nefarious plan by, not just our government, but healthcare professionals and governments worldwide. And I’m not buying that at all. It’s has the whiff of conspiracy type rubbish.

With due respect that's nonsense. I never mentioned governments overseas as I have very little knowledge of them other than Germany and Austria who are rather difficult to ignore right now. You might not hate 'anti-vaxxers' but thanks to the overwhelmingly negative press many other people now do. Referring back to one of the papers you mentioned, I looked at a Guardian article yesterday about how things were about to get ugly for antivaxxers and the comments section below was one of the most unpleasant I've ever witnessed. It was full of really inflammatory name calling and hate-speech towards the unvaccinated and now appears to have been removed from their website - maybe because of too many complaints? I'd always had the impression that Guardian readers were meant to be compassionate people who fought against discrimination. Considering a more than proportionate amount of the unvaccinated are from ethnic minorities, I certainly don't feel that way now.

It is not a 'pandemic of the unvaccinated' and the unvaccinated are not taking up a vast proportion of beds or dying in larger numbers

But that is precisely what is being reported by medical personnel, over and over again, these last few months in ICU wards and hospitals from all over the world.

It is largely the unvaccinated who are dying, and it is the unvaccinated who are begging for vaccines when it is far too late to do anything but palliate their distress...

In my opinion, the only reason we've got to a stage where people would even consider vaccine mandates or locking up just the unvaccinated as being reasonable or proportionate is the constant drip, drip, drip of the press stories and manipulation of figures we've all been subjected to.

Germany is only imposing restrictions on the unvaccinated because their hospital system in many parts of the country is buckling - and this is before winter proper kicks in, and as cases continue to rise markedly.

Likewise, the idea of mandating vaccines, which they were very much against, has had to be tabled for a vote in February, as too few numbers have been vaccinated to halt the surge of infections and their hospitals are on the verge of being completely overwhelmed.

Hospitals in Germany are probably different from ours, ours are full of bed blockers because of the care system, maybe theirs aren't so it's very difficult to compare different countries health systems and how overwhelmed they are

That's not really relevant, bed blockers are in normal beds, not ITU/ICU beds.

The problem with covid and hospitals is that people spend a very long time in ITU. Normal ICU times as I understand it are a few days. Covid patients can be in ICU for weeks or even months. That's a problem everywhere because nobody has the capacity in ICU to keep patients for months.

@nojudgementhere sorry but you are totally wrong. The unvaccinated are disproportionately represented both in hospitals and esp in icu. They literally clogging up the system which is why they are a problem. Weirdly their aversion to medical science doesnt extend as far as treatment for the disease they were happy to catch (or which apparently doesnt exist).

Most in our ITU are overweight or obese, I wonder if it is the same everywhere,

@Userevermore

Most in our ITU are overweight or obese, I wonder if it is the same everywhere,

I'm inclined to think that's the case but AFAIK there's nothing official to confirm it.

@WinterKit

But what I believe isn’t nonsense is that you and I want the same thing. A safer world, our freedoms back - for me personally I desperately want my children to have every opportunity possible as they grow up. I don’t want them restricted. But I’m not afraid, fearful - and I don’t feel hatred towards anyone. I firmly believe we’ve all got to work together to our common goal. And I’m very much accepting that I can speculate, but I’m certainly no expert - which is why I’m willing to accept what most healthcare professionals worldwide are advising/the general consensus of medical thought on Covid.

Morning @WinterKit - I do want the same thing as in a safer world & freedoms back and I'm glad that you don't feel hatred towards me! It is difficult not to start getting a little paranoid though when you see headlines all the time designed to create division. Today's example - Daily Mail '"Why I've banned my unjabbed friend from my festive party." I'm particularly lovng the unironic use of the word friend there!

To go back to your point, I also don't know why so many countries are talking about introducing mandates but I'm certainly not putting it down to some huge consipiracy theory. I do however know that in their response to Covid so far they have got many things wrong - you only have to look at all the deaths in the UK that are now occuring because of lockdown & the huge damage caused to our economy in comparison to Sweden to see that they don't have all the answers. On an ethical level, forcing adults of sound mind to have a mandated and very new jab (indeed some of the Guardian comments I spoke about were gleefully talking about holding people down and forcibly injecting them) is very, very wrong. If this is the kind of world you want your child to grow up in then I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree.

[quote Porcupineintherough]@nojudgementhere sorry but you are totally wrong. The unvaccinated are disproportionately represented both in hospitals and esp in icu. They literally clogging up the system which is why they are a problem. Weirdly their aversion to medical science doesnt extend as far as treatment for the disease they were happy to catch (or which apparently doesnt exist).[/quote]
I was speaking about the headlines in the newspapers so I'm not sure I am wrong. I accept that the unvaccinated are 'disproportionately respresented' in hospitals but the newspaper articles I've been reading don't seem to mention facts about proportion. They instead blast out nonsense like 'Pandemic of the Unvaccinated' and conveniently ignore the fact that the majority hospitalised and dying are sadly double vaccinated. They also frequently quote out of date figures such as the one that unvaccinated people are 32 x more likely to pass on Covid (based on data from Jan to Sept when most people were not double jabbed) and use this to support their case. I really think there needs to be more transparency & less use of figures to instill fear and compliance which is why I've got such an issue with the government's nudge unit. I don't want to be 'nudged' like I'm an incapable child. I would like clear and honest facts and figures without a huge chunk of propoganda thrown in. Is that really too much to ask?

@WinterKit you are naive. Rarely in history have governments taken freedoms away then given them back. It is also very unclear in your post whether you agree with mandates or not. If you DO - and your argument makes it sounds like that - would you be willing to see these mandates enforced through forced vaccination? People calling for mandates ought to be willing to answer this very uncomfortable question.

@WinterKit you say: "Holding down, forcing, jabbing = completely inflammatory."
You might think I am being frivolous. That is not the case. I have a few friends also unvaccinated. We are genuinely fearful that it might come to this. I never thought I would see people being fined for not being vaccinated or banned from pubs etc. I would rule nothing out after the past 18-months.

[quote churchofthepoisonmind]@WinterKit you are naive. Rarely in history have governments taken freedoms away then given them back. It is also very unclear in your post whether you agree with mandates or not. If you DO - and your argument makes it sounds like that - would you be willing to see these mandates enforced through forced vaccination? People calling for mandates ought to be willing to answer this very uncomfortable question.[/quote]
This is not true.