Germany bans unvaccinated from shops and pubs.

[Ratched]

We really are going to end up with a two tier society. It's actually quite worrying.

I am NOT anti vaxx, just concerned at how we are sleep walking into giving away our hard won freedoms.

@BlueskiesAbove You are misusing the term 'discriminatory'.

I personally, despite how at risk I am from Covid, am fortunate to have had a not-that-shit time during the pandemic so far. This is almost entirely down to factors outside my control (like the family I was born into), things that have made shielding for a very long period relatively easy. I am not even close to being one of the people most harmed by the pandemic and would never claim to be.

Nonetheless, I think there are strong arguments for vaccine mandates and only quite weak ones against them. Your personal attacks don't actually carry much weight!

@XenoBitch I think it's utterly appalling that people have suggested your UC should be stopped. I would never support that as a policy.

[quote Innocenta]@BlueskiesAbove You are misusing the term 'discriminatory'.

I personally, despite how at risk I am from Covid, am fortunate to have had a not-that-shit time during the pandemic so far. This is almost entirely down to factors outside my control (like the family I was born into), things that have made shielding for a very long period relatively easy. I am not even close to being one of the people most harmed by the pandemic and would never claim to be.

Nonetheless, I think there are strong arguments for vaccine mandates and only quite weak ones against them. Your personal attacks don't actually carry much weight! [/quote]
I'm pleased to read you haven't suffered that badly during the pandemic, but many have and have also suffered horrendous reactions to the vaccine which you want to see mandated. Healthcare should never be a generic sweeping policy for everyone but individualised for each person as we all have different circumstances. What you are proposing persecutes other people yet have the audacity to talk about selfishness.

Bloody Well Said! 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

Calling something you don't personally favour persecution is a type of hyperbole that insults those who have experienced the real thing. @BlueskiesAbove

As I've said many times in the thread, I don't believe we will see this eventuate in the UK. But it is not persecution.

again I am not in favour personally of vaccine passports or mandates without an alternative choice such as testing

But again the continuous covid minimising rubbish such as “ because they don't want to continually take jabs for a virus that has a mortality age over 80 with a far lower risk to the NHS than the aforementioned group...” means I am starting to care less and less

My kids have to do a LFT to prove they are negative to go to school. Easy. So I really don’t understand where the need for all this “banking unvaccinated people” comes from. My kids aren’t vaccinated and aren’t banned from school. They spend 30 seconds sticking that thing up their nose. Job done. Upload the proof onto phone. Email teacher. Why can’t that be the daily morning process for anyone unable or unwilling to get the vaccine? So, somebody unvaccinated might not want to go to a pub every day. But if they want to go to one for a friends party for example, they do their LFT before leaving the house and show the proof on the door or upload to some central system that gives them a bar code to enter.

I do not see the downside.

Can anyone explain why this can’t be implemented. Surely then everyone is happy. Unvaccinated don’t have to inject chemicals in their bodies and anyone mixing with them knows they are testing negative every day.

I was reading through the govt blurb re the app to help people eat/live more healthily. On the face of it, a good idea, seems to offer carrots and no sticks. I only baulked at the phrase our world-leading healthy weight strategy. I do wonder how the app would know how many fruit/veg you were eating, does it rely on one's honesty? I do think it would need to be tweaked a lot to allow for people with disabilities and health issues, otherwise they could not take part, but that could be addressed.

However...and I can't recall the country this goes on, maybe S.Korea, or Singapore? Where you get reward points for being a good citizen and lose points or get excluded from things if you make undesirable choices, tracked by phone apps. Was on the BBC a few weeks ago.

So to the people who ask what's wrong with an app to encourage people to live more healthily - well, nothing. It's the potential expansion of that trend, with more data tracking, rewards and then the introduction of penalties (you put on 2 lbs this week, you're shut out of buying any sweet food items for a week as a result, as a trivial example). All this can be monitored by your smartphone and geolocation data, all shops are linked to a database where everyone's points are tallied and behaviours followed. Add in to that one's health records - and yes, potentially mandatory vaccinations and other health checks. This is what some of us fear could happen at some point in the future, and I don't think it's a stretch to imagine it happening. It all starts with good intentions, but with different governments and people in power, that can quickly change. There's plenty of science fiction along those lines, but it feels less and less like fiction these days. Don't be too sure it could never happen. It already is in some places.

@WinterKit Thank you! I definitely agree with you that a (hypothetical) mandate would be best conceived as a situational solution. I'm not at all in favour of limiting bodily autonomy for the sake of it! But I think, for instance, that sometimes people are failing to consider the relative impacts of the vaccine vs Covid: yes, the vaccine can, exceptionally rarely, cause a clotting problem. But Covid is in many ways a clotting disease; so, so many Covid deaths involve clotting malfunctions. I'm sure you know this, of course! But I fear many are just looking at the vaccine risks and not weighing how to make the 'more but not perfect' ethical choice in a crisis like this.

@Lilifer Ad hominem really adds nothing to the thread. If you think my arguments are weak, it should be a doddle to rebut them.

It's starting to get scary

There's a lot of "if you're vaccinated you can still catch / pass on covid", yes, that's true but the vast majority of hospitalisations come from the unvaccinated and hospitalisations is what they're worried about.

I'm double vaccinated, I had my MMR jab recently too, I fully support vaccines, however I absolutely do not support mandated vaccination or anything forced that's to do with someone's body.

We just have to look at America at 11 year olds forced to carry pregnancies and die in childbirth to see how we could be one step away from some insane law being passed and that would be horrendous and terrifying on all levels.

@BlueskiesAbove what's the average age of people in ICU with COVID? Maybe you should educate yourself. It's not just about who dies, it's about who needs a bed for 2 months to survive and they tend to be younger.

@nocnoc

My kids have to do a LFT to prove they are negative to go to school. Easy. So I really don’t understand where the need for all this “banking unvaccinated people” comes from. My kids aren’t vaccinated and aren’t banned from school. They spend 30 seconds sticking that thing up their nose. Job done. Upload the proof onto phone. Email teacher. Why can’t that be the daily morning process for anyone unable or unwilling to get the vaccine? So, somebody unvaccinated might not want to go to a pub every day. But if they want to go to one for a friends party for example, they do their LFT before leaving the house and show the proof on the door or upload to some central system that gives them a bar code to enter.

I do not see the downside.

Can anyone explain why this can’t be implemented. Surely then everyone is happy. Unvaccinated don’t have to inject chemicals in their bodies and anyone mixing with them knows they are testing negative every day.

This has been asked frequently but people who support mandatory vaccination and punishment for non-compliance never want to answer it.

There are also definitely other ways to encourage vaccine uptake. If you end up and coercion and punishment, your public health policies needs examining. I think nudging is ok - it can cross the line too which is why we need to keep scrutinising policies.

When you resort to something like a mandate, you should realise too that it could have a lasting impact on people’s response to future public health policies and other initiatives. There may be a long term impact on things like trust.

It is interesting to consider why the countries who have done this have felt they had to - because it represents earlier failings in their policies.

[quote WinterKit]@Innocenta

I haven’t read through all your posts, but the more I read on here - the more I’m potentially in favour of vaccine mandates for Covid.

I think, when there is no unmanageable threat to humanity - there should be a choice.

When there in an unmanageable threat to humanity, emergency measures are needed - which, in an extreme circumstance - may require a vaccine mandate.

I don’t think any European government ‘wants’ to impose a mandate. My personal view would be that in a crisis situation - preserving life, ensuring the vulnerable don’t suffer, ensuring the NHS can run all its services well - trumps an individual’s desire for body autonomy.

When the crisis is over, then I think that mandate should be dropped - and I firmly believe that would happen once the threat has passed.[/quote]
Covid is not a threat to humanity

The population continues to grow every day

www.worldometers.info/

Also when I read what is happening in Austria and Germany, it seems so extreme that I find it difficult to believe that it could be true and then I feel that I must be misunderstanding or have got it wrong and leads to an instinct to minimise how serious it is because “this can’t be happening.” But I think it actually is happening.

@ShiftingSands21

There are also definitely other ways to encourage vaccine uptake. If you end up and coercion and punishment, your public health policies needs examining. I think nudging is ok - it can cross the line too which is why we need to keep scrutinising policies.

When you resort to something like a mandate, you should realise too that it could have a lasting impact on people’s response to future public health policies and other initiatives. There may be a long term impact on things like trust.

It is interesting to consider why the countries who have done this have felt they had to - because it represents earlier failings in their policies.

I find that - genuinely - really interesting, because to me, nudging seems more sinister! I think a mandate is a relatively 'open' situation; if the public hates it, they can vote the government out and send a strong message that it isn't acceptable. Nudging, imo, is worrying because it's covert.

[quote Porcupineintherough]@BlueskiesAbove what's the average age of people in ICU with COVID? Maybe you should educate yourself. It's not just about who dies, it's about who needs a bed for 2 months to survive and they tend to be younger.[/quote]
And then the massive physical and mental trauma resulting from being on ITU... It can take years to recover, and people don't necessarily regain their previous functional ability even in the longterm (speaking to, eg, ARDS patients in earlier years, pre-Covid).

"Lilifer Ad hominem really adds nothing to the thread. If you think my arguments are weak, it should be a doddle to rebut them."

@Innocenta well indeed but @BlueskiesAbove did that so well in her post at 22.52 last night and I can only add my full agreement to her words.

As for as hominem you're not above voicing negative views here on this thread on those who you label as selfish for not taking the vaccine so don't be hypocritical on top of everything else.