Germany bans unvaccinated from shops and pubs.

[Ratched]

We really are going to end up with a two tier society. It's actually quite worrying.

I am NOT anti vaxx, just concerned at how we are sleep walking into giving away our hard won freedoms.

@DaisyNGO

So if you have three adult friends round, you're supposed to ask them if they are vaccinated? Weird.

CEV people were advised this summer not to mix with unvaccinated people - difficult if you have children.

I will always, and forever be pro body autonomy. Wether people have good reasons or not for not wanting to vaccinate, it should be their right. It isn't my business if somebody is or isn't vaccinated, it's theirs and theirs alone.

@herecomesthsun is this official advice? I'm classed as cev and haven't heard that. My DH isn't vaccinated, not by choice, but because of an illness he's currently recovering from he has been advised by his consultant that a vaccination could cause a flare up.

herecomesthesun

My consultant and GP haven't mentioned this? It's mad though.

@XenoBitch

It seems you are determined to make it a terrible idea, no matter what information people give you about it

headupsystems.com/healthincentives/

Here's the official website - and it actually states

We’re also looking to engage with a representative group of Wolverhampton residents to help shape and inform the pilot before it begins, so please let us know if you’d like to be part of our user engagement panel.

If so passionate - why not contact them ask ask if people with disabilities are eligible to apply, and if their goals will be adjusted accordingly? They are literally looking for opinions like this to help make it successful and inclusive.

This is part of an email sent to me on 27th September, supposedly from Sajid Javid

"As someone with a health condition you might also want to think about extra things you can do to keep yourself and others safe. This could include:

considering whether you and those you are meeting have been vaccinated – you might want to wait until 14 days after everyone’s second dose of a COVID-19 vaccine before being in close contact with others
considering continuing to practise social distancing if that feels right for you and your friends
asking friends and family to take a rapid lateral flow antigen test before visiting you
asking home visitors to wear face coverings
avoiding crowded spaces"

[quote ollyollyoxenfree]@XenoBitch

It seems you are determined to make it a terrible idea, no matter what information people give you about it

headupsystems.com/healthincentives/

Here's the official website - and it actually states

We’re also looking to engage with a representative group of Wolverhampton residents to help shape and inform the pilot before it begins, so please let us know if you’d like to be part of our user engagement panel.

If so passionate - why not contact them ask ask if people with disabilities are eligible to apply, and if their goals will be adjusted accordingly? They are literally looking for opinions like this to help make it successful and inclusive.[/quote]
Not really... what I posted was from the Gov site...

www.gov.uk/government/news/new-pilot-to-help-people-eat-better-and-exercise-more

It is interesting watching world leaders react to a virus that has now been prevalent for more than 2 years..

This mandate takes away a person’s decision to refuse medical treatment. Any adult or child deemed to have capacity (understand/ the benefits and risks of a treatment/procedure), still has the right to refuse for whatever reason they choose.

When a government takes away that right with no long term studies on vaccine efficacy (eg so far 2 doses and a booster have been required to maintain antibody levels and those with all 3 vaccines are still getting infected!!)- it just seems pointless to focus on restricting privileges for the unvaccinated instead of finding a way to prevent transmission or treat it effectively!

The relative risk of dying of Covid/ especially in the

@DaisyNGO and @peboh

It may have been mentioned in other correspondence also - I thought at the time that it was entirely unrealistic - because of my children.

I certainly haven't been asking acquaintances when they had their last vaccination, but then again, I have continued to be very careful. We have been on holiday several times and so on.

I don't understand your reply? @XenoBitch

You quoted all the vouchers etc that are offered when people join the app with the following comment:

So I suppose you wont be able to access them sad... all things that if you don't work due to a disability, would be very useful.

When you have no idea if someone with a disability cannot join or whether it would be a useful tool for them. The website doesn't give this info, and if you follow the link I gave you, they are looking for public engagement with people with points such as this.

The fact that they're trying to get a representative sample of people does suggest anyone would be able to join and I haven't seen any evidence they would be "penalised" or not be able to access it.

Thanks for helping me find out a bit more, @ollyollyoxenfree and @XenoBitch ! I appreciate it

I'm not in Wolverhampton so I won't bother them with any questions at this point. Vouchers sound great, XenoBitch, you're correct that I personally don't work due to disability. But I didn't grasp initially that it sounds like there are limited slots at the early stage - aside from my health I am quite lucky so I wouldn't want to take one from someone who might need it more, even if eligible. It will be interesting to see if they do ever open this to the wider public!

I understand concerns about the Chinese system, but to me this seems quite different. Tackling obesity is a pretty urgent issue given how much it affects health.

Majority of German voters support mandatory vaccination.

That is the part of story that upsets me most. :(

What hopeful77 wrote I like a lot -- scary precedents being set here.

@hopeful777 The state already restricts access to places. Try and walk straight into the House of Commons, and tell us how you get on.

Are you a doctor? Did you object to the mandatory vaccines before medical school...? Would you be a-okay with a significant drop in the measles vaccine's uptake (with resulting outbreaks and child deaths)? Mandatory measles vaccines have been discussed as a serious option elsewhere in Europe.

I am a doctor and I love the nhs. I have had all my vaccines including mandatory ones for med school- however this was my decision when choosing my career. Please understand the only thing I am advocating is choice.

I love working for the nhs and at its core are 7 values which include ‘everyone counts’ and every patient should be treated with compassion, respect and dignity.

When you make something mandatory, you take away the human right to choice. And I just don’t want to live in a society like that.

(Also restricted access to parliament/palaces/schools/prisons etc are to protect the people and the sensitive information inside. That is very different to restricting an unvaccinated Covid person from a restaurant/ cinema/ shopping complex etc).

The world is very clearly divided in its response to this pandemic. I am only promoting the mindset of being respectful of another person’s views and not taking away their human rights under the guise of somehow protecting the population.

@Innocenta

Thanks for helping me find out a bit more, *@ollyollyoxenfree and @XenoBitch* ! I appreciate it

I'm not in Wolverhampton so I won't bother them with any questions at this point. Vouchers sound great, XenoBitch, you're correct that I personally don't work due to disability. But I didn't grasp initially that it sounds like there are limited slots at the early stage - aside from my health I am quite lucky so I wouldn't want to take one from someone who might need it more, even if eligible. It will be interesting to see if they do ever open this to the wider public!

I understand concerns about the Chinese system, but to me this seems quite different. Tackling obesity is a pretty urgent issue given how much it affects health.

It is in trial at the moment, and if successful will be rolled out nationwide. I am not sure how it would work with people with disabilities that would limit them from carrying out the activities required.

I only mentioned it initially as it was something health related that the government have got themselves involved in. It is "do xyz well, and you get a reward" compared to now with the vaccines which might end up being "do xyz, and you can go to xyz places". If that makes sense!

hopeful777 you are spot on.

@hopeful777 You wanted to train as a doctor, so you chose to be vaccinated.

If someone wants to enter a restaurant, they can choose be vaccinated. If they choose not to be, they lose that option ... to, yes, protect the people inside.

Nobody has an absolute right to go everywhere they want. If someone chooses to wear an offensive shirt promulgating terroristic views, they may be refused boarding of a plane. Again: they have made a choice.

If people were being physically forced to undergo vaccination - literally held down - I would agree that that is a breach of human rights. But I don't believe there is evidence of any democratic country doing that.

[quote Innocenta]@hopeful777 You wanted to train as a doctor, so you chose to be vaccinated.

If someone wants to enter a restaurant, they can choose be vaccinated. If they choose not to be, they lose that option ... to, yes, protect the people inside.

Nobody has an absolute right to go everywhere they want. If someone chooses to wear an offensive shirt promulgating terroristic views, they may be refused boarding of a plane. Again: they have made a choice.

If people were being physically forced to undergo vaccination - literally held down - I would agree that that is a breach of human rights. But I don't believe there is evidence of any democratic country doing that. [/quote]
Austria have said they will be fining people not vaccinated by a certain date, and I believe Germany are following the same path.

So, how is get vaccinated or face a fine, acceptable?

If I don't want to get vaccinated, I can just avoid the places that need to see proof... but being fined.. you have no where to hide (as some health honcho in Australia made clear).

Also, @hopeful777 - I presume you are very familiar with the reality that behaviour-based decisions are already made, routinely, even within medicine...! How would transplant programmes function if that didn't happen? You know as well as I do the terrible shortfall in organs, I am sure.

I am not one of those who thinks unvaccinated people should have all care withheld. I agree that that goes against core NHS values. But the reality is that there are already so many ways in which we don't truly get to 'choose' things. I think that's eminently apparent for people with complex multifactorial medical issues that involve seeing different teams across multiple hospitals. 'Medical autonomy' is extremely limited.

@XenoBitch Of course I think it's acceptable - I've said throughout this thread that I support a mandate.

A fine is not forcible vaccination. My only concern would be that like all fines, it's unlikely to be exercised in a truly equitable way across income sectors - this is an area of law I'd love to see changed, so that fines are no longer negligible to high income earners.

[quote Innocenta]@hopeful777 You wanted to train as a doctor, so you chose to be vaccinated.

If someone wants to enter a restaurant, they can choose be vaccinated. If they choose not to be, they lose that option ... to, yes, protect the people inside.

Nobody has an absolute right to go everywhere they want. If someone chooses to wear an offensive shirt promulgating terroristic views, they may be refused boarding of a plane. Again: they have made a choice.

If people were being physically forced to undergo vaccination - literally held down - I would agree that that is a breach of human rights. But I don't believe there is evidence of any democratic country doing that. [/quote]
How will stop the virus be prevented by not allowing non vaccinated people to meet at the pub

They can still meet in private homes and continue spreading the virus to others who can then spread it to those that were in the pub. Also being vaccinated tho it reduces the chances doesn’t warranty 100% that you’re virus free so you can have still the virus spread in the pubs.

This will mainly affect hospitality owners who have been badly affected and not supported by the pandemic.

If someone wants to enter a restaurant, they can choose be vaccinated. If they choose not to be, they lose that option ... to, yes, protect the people inside.

Why do the people inside need protecting from the unvaccinated, If thet are vaccinated the vaccine protects them from the unvaccinated.

I am vaccinated but people do seem to have a irrational fear of the unvaccinated.

[quote Innocenta]@XenoBitch Of course I think it's acceptable - I've said throughout this thread that I support a mandate.

A fine is not forcible vaccination. My only concern would be that like all fines, it's unlikely to be exercised in a truly equitable way across income sectors - this is an area of law I'd love to see changed, so that fines are no longer negligible to high income earners. [/quote]
I am on UC... I have seen people on MN say that my benefits should be stopped because I am not vaccinated.
I would end up homeless and starving... and the people screaming for mandates are the ones who think we all need to have the vaccine for "the greater good". Can you not see the hypocrisy in this?

@Innocenta You have stated earlier in the thread that you have multiple health issues so have subsequently taken the vaccine ( sensibly so). You have then stated you support mandatory vaccination creating a discriminatory policy against those who don't suffer your health issues and quite frankly don't need the vaccine/ boosters. The posts continue from you talking about selfishness and your rights.. what rights do healthy young people have that don't need continual " boosters" to protect someone in your circumstances from decisions they make over their own bodies- none presumably?

The reality is much of the " greater good " argument isn't altruism but purely motivated by self survival attempting to remove body autonomy from other healthier people to reduce in your eyes your own perceived risk. I suspect if it was a blood disorder which you suffered from , mandatory blood donation would be supported. Any medical procedure which has a risk of death no matter how miniscule should not be dictated to by anyone else- I'm not interested in whether you believe a healthy young person should have numerous jabs to " stop being selfish". What I do see is unbelievable selfishness from individuals like you attempting to enforce medical procedures with a " one size fits all policy". Most vulnerable people I know have been vaccinated and appreciate everyones health circumstances are different instead of vile individuals running rough shod over a human beings body autonomy- utterly vile on every level.

With regards to overunning the NHS, well if we banned smoking , alcohol and junk food we would save more lives than covid but then if anyone suggests just one of those it's cruel on "addicts" apparently. To summarise we have a society where someone can drink ,smoke and eat crap daily who is doing their bit for the NHS taking regular covid jabs stuck at home all day yet a clean living healthy person out paying taxes contributing to society that does none of those should be precluded from society because they don't want to continually take jabs for a virus that has a mortality age over 80 with a far lower risk to the NHS than the aforementioned group... what's any sane person supposed to say to that other than shake their head in bewilderment at it.