Germany bans unvaccinated from shops and pubs.

[Ratched]

We really are going to end up with a two tier society. It's actually quite worrying.

I am NOT anti vaxx, just concerned at how we are sleep walking into giving away our hard won freedoms.

Well where does it lead? Once the pandemic is over and COVID is just another thing we get it wont matter whose vaccinated and whose not and - given the costs of vaccination I guess most of us wont be any more. Until then we just need to keep some ICU capacity.

@Fleur405

I really don’t get all this business about giving up our freedoms. We gave up our freedom to drive around without a seatbelt and to smoke indoors and to buy cereal not fortified with folate - all for public health reasons. I 100% think that people are entitled to choose whether or not to have the vaccine but when your “rights” affect other people then a balance has to be struck - so choose not to have the vaccine by all means but then you have to accept there are certain things you can’t do so as not to put other people at risk.

In response to the last bit. The issue is, that up to now it has been a choice, however Germany 'could' be mandating it (they will do of course - nobody needs a crystal ball to see that), so therefore it will not be a choice anymore. You won't have the option not to have it whilst at the same time accepting that there are certain things you can't do. In those circumstances you aren't free to decide what happens to your body. Minimise it all you like but that's a really really big deal.

You will have people going into places with their digital pass and you've absolutely no idea whether they currently have Covid. The fact they've had the vaccine will not guarantee at any given moment that those people are free from infection. Why don't people see this. It's baffling.

Free to read

Unvaccinated will only be allowed to meet two people outside household

Not clear what that means.

Link would help

www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2021/12/02/germany-announce-nationwide-covid-lockdown-unvaccinated/?utm_content=telegraph&utm_medium=Social&utm_campaign=Echobox&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1638451350-1

It really does go to show how we are more culturally the same as the Americans than the Europeans.

Well where does it lead?

Unless you haven't learnt from history segregating people isn't good.

That's the thing where does doing things for the greater good end, it's a very dangerous road to go down, what else could be used for the greater good we know fear has been used in various civilizations in the past to control people and Germany certainly should know a lot better.

[quote Porcupineintherough]@Twilight7777 so you are CEV, you cant be vaccinated and your greatest fear is not being able to go to nightclubs?[/quote]
My greatest fear is that I will be penalised for something that I cannot control. I don’t go to nightclubs. I very rarely go out and when I do I wear a mask, so no it’s not about things like nightclubs it’s things like I can’t go to Tesco to get my shopping because I’ve not been able to have the vaccination as it would be a severe risk to my life. But nice of you to make an assumption about me 🙄

@TheAntiGardener

I get the impression that a lot of posters don’t realise that most rights are not absolute. The right to privacy - something I’m particularly concerned with - and freedom of speech both have limits, for example. Those limits or exceptions come into play when there is another concern like national security or prevention/investigation of crime that outweighs them.

If it is likely that restricting the movement of unvaccinated people were to bring significant benefits in the form of lower rates of serious illness, hospitalisation, less chance of going back into lockdown and so on, I’d absolutely see that as an acceptable trade-off.

Op really needn’t worry that people who are ok with this haven’t engaged their brains. Being ok with some restrictions for some people based on their own choices - IF backed up with evidence that this is reasonably likely to be in the interests of the greater good - is a long way from fascism, ‘medieval segregation’ or a number of other things alleged on this thread. It’s interesting that some posters have contrasted Covid with diseases like Ebola, which would suggest they too would accept this in principle, but just that the bar for it being acceptable is higher for them.

I think public support for the absolute right to do what you want when it has health and freedom of movement consequences for everyone without consequence is lower than some hope.

I agree with this. The whole situation around rights and responsibilities is nuanced. Of course we need to be vigilant against governments taking advantage of situations to further extreme ideologies, but a balance has to be struck between rights and responsibilities.

@DaisyNGO

Free to read

Unvaccinated will only be allowed to meet two people outside household

Not clear what that means.

It means if you're meeting up with people outside of your household you can only have a meeting of your own household members plus a max of 2 other unvaccinated people. Children as long as they belong to one household of somebody involved do not count. Adults in a relationship count as one household.

If you add vaccinated people in it's up to 50 people that can meet from any number of households.

There's nothing to stop people from meeting person A and B on Monday, C and D on Tuesday and E and F on Wednesday but they do ask you to use common sense and not do that.

@DaisyNGO

Free to read

Unvaccinated will only be allowed to meet two people outside household

Not clear what that means.

How will that be policed? It is ridiculous.

[quote XenoBitch]@clopper
I do not wish to be a part of a society and culture which China promotes of social credits and tracking to implement ‘desirable’ behaviours

There is already talk of a Gov app being rolled out to reward people for exercising etc.[/quote]
This is rolling out in January next year, I have seen the information as it is on the government website. I don’t agree with that either. It penalises people who simply can’t walk 10k steps a day for a start, on a good day I’m lucky to do 2000 steps. Bad day less than 1000 (I have a spinal condition as well as every other system of my body being medically disabled other than the digestive system)

So if you have three adult friends round, you're supposed to ask them if they are vaccinated? Weird.

I’m interested in knowing ‘where that road leads’ as well. I’m guessing this comment is yet another one alluding to things like the Holocaust and apartheid - events and systems brought about due to ideologies based on unscientific prejudices themselves motivated by hatred. And which had a net result of suffering for huge numbers of people over long periods of time. None of this relates in the least to the current situation. Unvaccinated people are not a persecuted group.

Reading this thread makes me wonder if people really grasp why racism and similar concepts are wrong and harmful.

Or perhaps the road is meant to lead to the scenario another poster mentioned whereby we’re all forcibly vaccinated with a vaccine twice as deadly as the virus it’s intended to fight. Another situation that has no equivalence to anything that is happening.

@TheAntiGardener

I’m interested in knowing ‘where that road leads’ as well. I’m guessing this comment is yet another one alluding to things like the Holocaust and apartheid - events and systems brought about due to ideologies based on unscientific prejudices themselves motivated by hatred. And which had a net result of suffering for huge numbers of people over long periods of time. None of this relates in the least to the current situation. Unvaccinated people are not a persecuted group.

Reading this thread makes me wonder if people really grasp why racism and similar concepts are wrong and harmful.

Or perhaps the road is meant to lead to the scenario another poster mentioned whereby we’re all forcibly vaccinated with a vaccine twice as deadly as the virus it’s intended to fight. Another situation that has no equivalence to anything that is happening.

Thank you for saying this so explicitly. It's very upsetting for those actually affected by the Holocaust (and I'm sure, any other genocide) to see it used as a rhetorical device in this cheap and disrespectful way.

@bellamountain

It really does go to show how we are more culturally the same as the Americans than the Europeans.

Good point.

We already have a two-tier society.

This is rolling out in January next year, I have seen the information as it is on the government website. I don’t agree with that either. It penalises people who simply can’t walk 10k steps a day for a start, on a good day I’m lucky to do 2000 steps. Bad day less than 1000 (I have a spinal condition as well as every other system of my body being medically disabled other than the digestive system)

@Twilight7777

Again - it's a app you can choose to download if you want to. No-one is forcing you to.

I presume it's targeted towards people without health issues or disabilities, and the 10k goal a day is pretty standard. Obviously, they need to roll out similar apps for other demographics, or have more flexible options to allow for people with health conditions to join if they want to, but I just don't understand this weird backlash against a very standard public health campaign to tackle obesity. Don't sign up for it if you don't want to!

It's as if people are determined to believe everyone in the country is going to be forced to join an app that makes you lose weight in some black mirror esque dystopian society.

@Againstmachine history has all sorts of lessons to teach us. And people are segregated in all sorts of ways all the time so your lesson needs to be a bit more complex than that. So do tell.

@Twilight7777 How did you find out this extra information? I'm a wheelchair user with other severe disabilities - does this mean I won't be permitted to sign up?

It's not policed of course. The only time it would ever matter would be if one of you tested positive for Coronavirus and you had to report your contacts.

There were fines for people having massive parties last year but I think it exists more as a measure that the police can point to in order to ask people politely to go home rather than people going around peering into Windows.

They say:

"Germany's national and regional leaders have agreed to bar unvaccinated people from much of public life in a bid to fend off a fourth wave of Covid-19.

Outgoing Chancellor Angela Merkel described the far-reaching measures as an act of "national solidarity".

Vaccinations could be made mandatory by February, the chancellor added."

I imagine more countries will follow if the rate of infections continue and more unvaccinated fill the hospitals. There are only so many beds available in hospital. Some countries are currently stopping people including children entering without be double vaxed so measures are increasing everywhere to protect people.

It's 2 years since Covid first started and things are still bad.

@TheAntiGardener

I’m interested in knowing ‘where that road leads’ as well. I’m guessing this comment is yet another one alluding to things like the Holocaust and apartheid - events and systems brought about due to ideologies based on unscientific prejudices themselves motivated by hatred. And which had a net result of suffering for huge numbers of people over long periods of time. None of this relates in the least to the current situation. Unvaccinated people are not a persecuted group.

Reading this thread makes me wonder if people really grasp why racism and similar concepts are wrong and harmful.

Or perhaps the road is meant to lead to the scenario another poster mentioned whereby we’re all forcibly vaccinated with a vaccine twice as deadly as the virus it’s intended to fight. Another situation that has no equivalence to anything that is happening.

Thanks for the post @TheAntiGardener

The people who reference these things are generally not are not the kind of people who actively campaign against anti-semitism or racism in every day life.

It shouldn't be something that's just wheeled out when you want to make a point. As has been said again and again, the Jewish community have repeatedly asked for Holocaust comparisons to stop being made.

[quote Innocenta]@Twilight7777 How did you find out this extra information? I'm a wheelchair user with other severe disabilities - does this mean I won't be permitted to sign up? [/quote]
This is all I've been able to find @Innocenta

www.news-medical.net/news/20211201/New-app-to-be-piloted-in-Wolverhampton-will-reward-healthy-behaviors.aspx

Not too much information of who is eligible to apply, but it will be rolled out in Wolverhampton in 2022. Hopefully if successful there will be more options which allow everyone to take part if they want to :)

@madmomma

Appalling policy. Anyone who thinks it's a good idea to segregate people like this needs to have a good long think about where that road leads.

I guess they are hoping the road leads to lower death rates and less people in ICU.

[quote Innocenta]@Twilight7777 How did you find out this extra information? I'm a wheelchair user with other severe disabilities - does this mean I won't be permitted to sign up? [/quote]
There are rewards for using the app....

Users will collect points for these healthy behaviours which will unlock rewards, which could include gym passes, clothes or food vouchers and discounts for shops, cinema or theme park tickets

So I suppose you wont be able to access them ... all things that if you don't work due to a disability, would be very useful.