Anti vaxxers question *title edited by MNHQ at OP's request*

[whywouldntyou]

Watching the local news last week our local hospitals ITU is 6/8 full with covid patients. All unvaccinated. Youngest is 20 with no underlying heath conditions. I am continually hearing about covid patients in or just out of ITU saying 'I wish I'd got the jab'.

How do you (as an anti vaxxer) reconcile your attitude but still expecting to be treated in ITU? If they said ' right, no jab, no ITU bed' would you still refuse the vaccine?

What would it (genuinely) take for you to have the jab having seen all the other anti vaxxers encouraging people to have it after realising how ill they were?

@HeyDugeesCakeBadge

Youkiddingme so you ARE one of the great unvaccinated then? How do you feel about being potentially unable to enter society because of your choices? Do you think it's fair that you may not be able to go on holiday, or enter the pub, or go to the cinema because you were poorly after a vaccine? If you aren't exempt you are just as selfish as the rest of us. Welcome.

No. My booster is not due yet. I may become technically unvaccinated if my health does not permit me to get my booster on time.

But, No I will not be going on holiday, or to the cinema or anywhere else. Because I am capable of accepting the consequences of my choice. Please stop judging me by how you would act. I feel it is perfectly reasonable for me to avoid public places until I feel able to be vaccinated for my own good and for the good of others.

Also, I have not called anyone selfish. I have merely pointed out that there are not-unreasonable consequences to the choices that we make - and I accept that fully.

@Bluepinkyellowcakes I'm sorry if you feel I am patronizing but that is not my intent, I genuinely don't see any coercion. My point is no one is pushing you to do anything.... you can opt to not be vaccinated. You have a choice.

definition of coercion: the practice of persuading someone to do something by using force or threats.

What force is being exerted upon you? what threat are you facing? People not agreeing is neither a threat nor force. Similarly, being unable to travel, or be employed in a certain industry is not a threat / imposition of force. You may well feel pressured, but that does not mean you are being coerced through threats or force.

Get vaccinated, don't get vaccinated - the choice is yours.

Oh good, someone else has arrived to tell me I'm selfish. That'll certainly persuade me to go against medical advice!

Seriously people, this is a pandemic that gives most people the symptoms of a cold/flu, if they get any symptoms at all! A small minority die or suffer long term.
A small minority from a large group is still a biggish number but it shouldn't mean we shut everything down, force vaccines on people by making their lives difficult until they comply, and start diving society and bullying people! Perspective is needed.

@HeyDugeesCakeBadge

Itsnotover why?

Because you are sidestepping the issue that is being discussed with stupid whataboutery.

Again I ask, what makes you think that your views about Covid and the effects of vaccines are superior to scientists and people who dedicate their lives to immunology research?

I'm hiding this thread now because I have better things to do than argue with people who are arrogant and foolish in equal measure.

Pinky you don't think being told to have a vaccine or lose your job is a threat?

[quote MaxNormal]@Pinkyxx I said both coronaviruses and influenza viruses mutate. That's as much of a comparison as I've drawn.

I can't have the vaccine, per the medical advice of my consultant.[/quote]
In which case, for people like you (& me for that matter) a high rate of vaccination in the population is critical.

All viruses have the potential to mutate, how problematic they are varies across a considerable spectrum.

Hospitals and ICU wards are full of people who thought they were fit as a fiddle and the vaccine wasn't for them.

Pretty sure Dugee isn't claiming their views are superior to anyone's.

@Bluepinkyellowcakes

Hoarding why do I "not matter" and my opinions "not matter"?! Does that apply to everyone, do you and your opinions matter because they are different to mine? How about the doctors and nurses who have chosen not to be vaccinated, do they and their opinions matter?

Because outside this forum I doubt you and your misinformation would reach many people.

In this matter you are as unimportant as anyone else whose job doesn't involve public health.

There are people who choose to now better everywhere in life, even doctors and nurses. They matter more as they are in a position to to real harm. But no, their obviously crackpot ideas are of no consequence either. Not when there is a weight of evidence and a real time pandemic. They only matter when they try to persuade others based on crackpot ideology.

Show me a doctor or nurse who has a serious issue and can discuss it in depth and in context then their opinions will matter.

It's caled knowing what you are talking about.

And if you don't, and your first few posts showed that you don't, then your opinions just don't matter.

And here you are still trying to persuade people....

Nobody is asking people to go against medical advice and have the vaccine.These are very, very few in number though. And it makes it all the more important for the rest of us to have it.

It's been nearly two years. I, for one, am absolutely over anti-vaxxers and their snowflake behaviour.

@SLH2003

Hospitals and ICU wards are full of people who thought they were fit as a fiddle and the vaccine wasn't for them.

Hospital wards are full of people who got sick. Jabbed and unjabbed. Both can get it both can pass it on and both can die from it. But only one group are demonised

Let’s not give platform to the privileged who won’t listen to reason and spout nonsense over and over again even though a lot of data has been provided, they are just trolling at this point and cannot even have the decency to check and understand what the medical experts are talking about. Can we use our time better than giving headspace to time wasters, I just hope their kids grow up to be a bit more logical and get access to therapy for the harm done (if needed).

@Bluepinkyellowcakes

Pinky you don't think being told to have a vaccine or lose your job is a threat?

No I don't. I consider it to be a pre-requisite of employment like many others...

... you must have X qualifications
... you must not have a criminal record
... you must be free of drugs

In the UK the vaccine is mandated only in professionals where being unvaccinated poses a risk to others. This feels reasonable and proportionate. I went to school abroad 20 years ago, either I had a certain suite of vaccinations or the school would not admit me... the requirement to be vaccinated isn't new..

@Bluepinkyellowcakes

Pinky you don't think being told to have a vaccine or lose your job is a threat?

No. It is a statement of fact.

In jobs that have long had some other medical requirements.

It is not unreasonable to expect those who will come into prolonged close contact with vulnerable people to take all precautions. And there is precedent, no matter what some say - all on the NHS website and has been the case for decades.

@Pinkyxx my health issues are due to damage from a medication. It did a lot of things to me, and one of them is that I no longer properly tolerate many other classes of drug.

Due to my experience I am obsessed with informed choice in all medical settings. The thought of someone feeling coerced or pressured to have this vaccine, and then suffering an adverse reaction, is horrific to me.

I would never ask someone else to do that, or to bear my medical risks. I'd feel like the most selfish person alive.

But I'm not trying to persuade anyone! I'm defending why I don't want the vaccine, defending my reasons. Not that I should have to. The vaccinated don't have to defend their reasons for making personal choices do they

Itsnotover no I'm not, I've answered the question in the OP. I'm not saying I know better, I'm exercising my choice not to have a vaccine. I don't deny that for some COVID can be deadly but for the vast majority it isn't.

I asked a perfectly valid question to you posting about vaccination - the mutations aren't coming from the unvaccinated in the UK (as far as we know) but large swathes of the world are unvaccinated due to the wests insistence on hoarding vaccines to vaccinate perfectly healthy people who would likely fight off the virus.

I also asked about mutations in the vaccinated as I do not know the answer? Can they mutate in the vaccinated? It's a perfectly reasonable question, I'm not sure why you've reacted so badly to it?

@Bluepinkyellowcakes

But I'm not trying to persuade anyone! I'm defending why I don't want the vaccine, defending my reasons. Not that I should have to. The vaccinated don't have to defend their reasons for making personal choices do they

Then don't

Stop posting.

My children won't need therapy 😂

I've had my booster. I didn't just have it for my own sake but I'm breast feeding and there's now a lot of research about vaccinated mothers providing antibodies in breast milk. So it's one more thing I can do to protect my baby.
I also got it to protect more vulnerable people I come into contact with including family members and the general population. Whilst it might not completely stop me getting/spreading it it reduces it considerably.
Also I have young children, I need to be fit and well to look after them. We all had norovirus a while back and it was so bad us all being very I'll at the same time.
It's not all about how fit you are and what your personal risk is.

Sorry Hoarding, I didn't realise you were the arbiter of posting on mumsnet. My apologies, I will immediately stop posting because you said so.

[quote MaxNormal]@Pinkyxx my health issues are due to damage from a medication. It did a lot of things to me, and one of them is that I no longer properly tolerate many other classes of drug.

Due to my experience I am obsessed with informed choice in all medical settings. The thought of someone feeling coerced or pressured to have this vaccine, and then suffering an adverse reaction, is horrific to me.

I would never ask someone else to do that, or to bear my medical risks. I'd feel like the most selfish person alive.[/quote]
I can certainly understand why you feel that way given your experience.

@Bluepinkyellowcakes

My children won't need therapy 😂

But it’s their personal choice to get therapy why are you being controlling

@HeyDugeesCakeBadge

That's a bit tricky to answer because the science/maths behind it is.

www.news-medical.net/news/20210813/Research-debunks-myth-that-COVID-vaccination-promotes-mutations.aspx

Basically analysis of many countries, vaccination rates and mutations show that there is a reduction in mutation rates as vacciination rates increase.

But obviously that could change, depending on the next set of mutations.