Anti vaxxers question *title edited by MNHQ at OP's request*

[whywouldntyou]

Watching the local news last week our local hospitals ITU is 6/8 full with covid patients. All unvaccinated. Youngest is 20 with no underlying heath conditions. I am continually hearing about covid patients in or just out of ITU saying 'I wish I'd got the jab'.

How do you (as an anti vaxxer) reconcile your attitude but still expecting to be treated in ITU? If they said ' right, no jab, no ITU bed' would you still refuse the vaccine?

What would it (genuinely) take for you to have the jab having seen all the other anti vaxxers encouraging people to have it after realising how ill they were?

Where on earth are you getting a case fatality rate of 3%? You think three out of every hundred people who get covid die of it?

And yes there is increasingly coercive behaviour towards the unvaccinated, please don't try and minimise that by claiming personal offense.
And

Just a quick reply to pinky, I've also been in a coercive relationship and I think that that is making me more determined not to be pushed into taking this vaccine. I put up with not being able to say no for too long so now I'll defend my right absolutely. Your experience has given you a different view and I respect that and don't think I'm right and you're wrong, we are not all the same, we can both be right.

@Maxnormal Look at the statistics, they are out there published for all to see.

Perhaps you do not understand what coercive means. I do claim personal offensive as no one is coercing anyone to get a vaccination. everyone has a responsibility to act responsibly in society. If you pose a risk to others (through refusing a vaccination), it's only right you cannot expect liberties.

It's just like how people aren't allowed to smoke in restaurants anymore. They can choose to smoke, that's their right. They cannot however choose to impose that risk on everyone else. Telling a smoker they can't smoke in a restaurant, imposing taxation on cigarettes, barring their entry, or ejecting them is not coercive.

@MaxNormal

Where on earth are you getting a case fatality rate of 3%? You think three out of every hundred people who get covid die of it?

And yes there is increasingly coercive behaviour towards the unvaccinated, please don't try and minimise that by claiming personal offense.
And

'Coercive behaviour' towards the unvaccinated.

Dry your tears....whilst people keep on selfishly convincing themselves that the vaccine does no good, the virus is mutating more than it would have. Which is exactly what the World Heath Organisation predicted.

It's just like how people aren't allowed to smoke in restaurants anymore. They can choose to smoke, that's their right. They cannot however choose to impose that risk on everyone else. Telling a smoker they can't smoke in a restaurant, imposing taxation on cigarettes, barring their entry, or ejecting them is not coercive.

Exactly.

Whenever I ask antivaxxers how we would have got out of lockdown if everyone was as dim and as selfish as them, they have no answer.

My ex is an antivaxxer. He has just had Covid. He spent 10 days on his back, coughing and low key panicking it was going to get worse. Now, he seems to have long covid.

Pinkyxx I have been in a seriously abusive relationship and this is exactly what coersion is. You might find it offensive but I will continue to say exactly what it is, as is my right.

@Bluepinkyellowcakes

Just a quick reply to pinky, I've also been in a coercive relationship and I think that that is making me more determined not to be pushed into taking this vaccine. I put up with not being able to say no for too long so now I'll defend my right absolutely. Your experience has given you a different view and I respect that and don't think I'm right and you're wrong, we are not all the same, we can both be right.

I certainly don't judge you for your choices, they are yours to make. We can agree to disagree. I'd only say I do feel you are conflating unrelated things. No one is pushing you into being vaccinated, it's your absolute right to not be & the government has made clear there is no mandate. They have a responsibility however to encourage everyone to get vaccinated as the fact is that unless everyone who possibly can be vaccinated this pandemic will continue to rage on. Lives will continue to be lost, businesses will fold, children will miss more and more school, hospitals will continue under strain, long term health issues will be created etc etc - none of this changes the fact you can still choose not to be vaccinated.

In making this choice, it's only right you accept that others have the right to disagree with your decision and that does not make them wrong or coercive. They simply want to 'get this under control' while limiting deaths and I'm afraid vaccinations, along with other public health measures, are the way to do that. I can see why the constant messaging in this regard feels like pressure, but truthfully, the science speaks for itself and they really have no other choice but to try and encourage people to take up the vaccine given how prolific Covid is.

Comparing the need to get vaccinated to being in an abusive relationship is totally fucked up.

Do you not understand that we are in the midst of a pandemic that has killed a lot of people and messed up the economy and peoples livelihoods? It's an unprecedented situation in most of our lifetimes.

Stop naval gazing...

Pinky I have seen the statistics which is why I'm confused by your claim. The figure is around 0.15% from memory.

You are talking about a medical procedure, something with potential risks and side effects that goes into someone's body. Comparing that to expecting someone to temporarily desist from smoking is not relevant.
Where there is risk there has to be choice. Always. And all medical interventions certainly pre this pandemic were undertaken on the basis of informed consent.

And yes of course it's coercive to tell someone that they must have an unwanted medical intervention or for instance lose their job.

The virus is mutating because its a virus. The flu virus mutates each year and we manage not to hate the unvaccinated for it.

And I'll repeat this yet again, I'm not selfish, I can't have the vaccine. I dont live the fact that there are going to be ever greater restrictions placed on my life, and that people will delight in that and gloat, but my health has to be the priority.

And I certainly do understand how much of an impact this has had on livelihoods yes. Our household income vanished for months.

And yes of course it's coercive to tell someone that they must have an unwanted medical intervention or for instance lose their job.

Not really. If they feel that strongly about it then they can look for another job. Why should they be allowed to put vulnerable and I'll people at risk? Why do their rights trump those they are caring for that have no choice?

Itsnotover no one is comparing it to being in an abusive relationship. Pinky said it was offensive to say it was coersion due to her experiences and others and I said we have also experienced that and we do think it's coersion and it's not offensive.

The virus is mutating because its a virus. The flu virus mutates each year and we manage not to hate the unvaccinated for it.

The virus will mutate more when there is a vocal minority who don't want to get vaccinated (those who can't fall under the category of those who need protecting by herd immunity).

Why do you think that you know better than scientists?

www.who.int/news-room/feature-stories/detail/the-effects-of-virus-variants-on-covid-19-vaccines

@HeyDugeesCakeBadge

Youkiddingme, think that through to its logical conclusion - so we have a vaccine passport, you've had your vaccine so why oppose it? But you're only classed as fully vaxxed if you've had boosters so each time you HAVE to get the booster to interact with society. You then had a terrible reaction and didn't want the next one, oh dear, you're then one of the unvaccinated - nope you cannot enter society.

Once you agree to give up your freedoms to the state, they aren't coming back. What happens if they add another vaccine to the passport and that's one you don't want? Or they say that coffee is now a banned substance so you can't drink that? It may sound like a conspiracy but that's the logical trajectory to giving the state so much power over bodily autonomy, you do as we say or we will ostracise you from society. Scary and dystopian.

As it happens I did have a severe reaction to being vaccinated. I am still struggling badly four months later, and I may well not feel able to have a booster when it is advised. I will have one when, and if, I feel it is appropriate for my level of health. But I don't think that gives me the right to put my wishes before the good of everyone else. If coffee were a banned substance I would assume it wouldn't be available unless on the black-market. That's not quite the same as, 'if you drink coffee you can't come in here.' In the latter case I would choose which was more important to me, the coffee or the venue.

'When a virus is widely circulating in a population and causing many infections, the likelihood of the virus mutating increases. The more opportunities a virus has to spread, the more it replicates – and the more opportunities it has to undergo changes.'

'Scaling up vaccine manufacturing and rolling out vaccines as quickly and widely as possible will also be critical ways of protecting people before they are exposed to the virus and the risk of new variants. Priority should be given to vaccinating high-risk groups everywhere to maximize global protection against new variants and minimize the risk of transmission. Moreover, ensuring equitable access to COVID-19 vacciness* is more critical than ever to address the evolving pandemic. As more people get vaccinated, we expect virus circulation to decrease, which will then lead to fewer mutations.'

@MaxNormal if you believe Covid-19 is comparable to flu, you've not been paying attention.

If you choose to not have a medical procedure that is your right, however, like with all things there are consequences to your choices. Your right to not be vaccinated does not supersede the right of those in your workplace who wish to work in a safe environment. You can work somewhere where vaccination is not required for the safety of others.

Another anecdote: it's everyone's right to drink alcohol (ingest a drug) so much so that they lose possession of their faculties. They are not permitted to get behind the wheel of a car as their ability to drive safely is compromised. If they do, they risk being arrested and banned. It is entirely right to constrain the rights of people who choose to consume copious amounts of alcohol and to do so (while it deprives them of a liberty) is not coercive. There is huge risk, and there is choice - just like there is choice to be or not be vaccinated. FYI: both smoking and alcohol consumption have side effects.

Informed consent is important I agree - but qualifying, ''my friend had it and it was like a cold'' or ''I had it and I was fine'' is not informed consent.

Itsnotover do you think the wests insistent on vaccinating healthy adults and children who likely wouldn't die and hoarding vaccines so the world's poorest regions can't vaccinate their populations have added to the mutations?

Also, do you know if the vaccinated populations can cause mutations as they can still contract and transmit covid? This is a good faith question BTW.

@HeyDugeesCakeBadge

Itsnotover do you think the wests insistent on vaccinating healthy adults and children who likely wouldn't die and hoarding vaccines so the world's poorest regions can't vaccinate their populations have added to the mutations?

Also, do you know if the vaccinated populations can cause mutations as they can still contract and transmit covid? This is a good faith question BTW.

This is a straw man argument.

I don't believe it is wrong

Like, erm, that's a great bit of academic reasoning, right there!

Way back upthread I, and fox and others, pointed out that there had been a great misunderstanding about the .gov information linked.

And that the NHS piece was an opinion piece, not research.

Everything else posted has been based on that misunderstanding. It's ludicrous. Like the last 18 months never happened. Even small kids have heard and understood more about the RR of covid and the vaccines.

And the "Ooh do we have an endless succession of boosters?" Well, yes! Until the virus burn itself out, just hope this one does what others have done. What else does a public health programme do?

As for the coercive crap. Stop! Everyone who spouts all of that gets looked askance at! You may not see it, because most of us are sick of it and simply chose to disengage. You carry your own echo chamber round withyou. You are encapsulated by it. The rest of the world chooses not to bother.

This space is probably the only time you have encountered consistent push back, evidenced, researched and detailed. And nothing changes.

I wish you well of it.

But do me one favour. Stay away from others. Practice good hygiene and be observant and respectful of the choice of others to tell you to step back.

No matter what you say you ARE trying to convince others that you are right. Or why would you defend your ideology so stongly?

You don't matter. Your opinions don't matter. That many here, myself included, are remonstarting with you is, as it has always been, for the benefit of those you are scaring. And for those people

@Bluepinkyellowcakes has seriously misunderstood a lot of the complex medical data she linked to at the beginning of the thread. All else said after that is based in that misunderstanding. Many posters who have posted across the Covid threads over the last 18 months have a lot of medical knowledge, some are immunologists, others (like me) have a small amount of specific knowledge. We know there has been a misunderstanding because, with our 4+ years of University education and career experience, we understand that data more clearly.

Have the vaccine, Don't have the vaccine. You have a choice.

But don't try to foist your ill informed opinions on others as facts! That is nauseatingly selfish!

Youkiddingme so you ARE one of the great unvaccinated then? How do you feel about being potentially unable to enter society because of your choices? Do you think it's fair that you may not be able to go on holiday, or enter the pub, or go to the cinema because you were poorly after a vaccine? If you aren't exempt you are just as selfish as the rest of us. Welcome.

Itsnotover why?

[quote Pinkyxx]@Maxnormal Look at the statistics, they are out there published for all to see.

Perhaps you do not understand what coercive means. I do claim personal offensive as no one is coercing anyone to get a vaccination. everyone has a responsibility to act responsibly in society. If you pose a risk to others (through refusing a vaccination), it's only right you cannot expect liberties.

It's just like how people aren't allowed to smoke in restaurants anymore. They can choose to smoke, that's their right. They cannot however choose to impose that risk on everyone else. Telling a smoker they can't smoke in a restaurant, imposing taxation on cigarettes, barring their entry, or ejecting them is not coercive.[/quote]
Pinky that's patronising, I do understand what coercive means and I'm not the only one saying that the way people are being pushed into this is coercive.
I didn't try telling you that you don't understand because your view is different to mine.

@Pinkyxx I said both coronaviruses and influenza viruses mutate. That's as much of a comparison as I've drawn.

I can't have the vaccine, per the medical advice of my consultant.

This thread is the height of whiny self-obsessed first world privilege. Being offered a life saving vaccine when less developed countries are fighting to get even their first doses is not bloody coercive. The ICU's are full of people who thought they had great immunity and did not smoke or drink and were not obese right now. ( A lot of us don't smoke or drink; it doesn't make you special).

In a fairer world, the vaccines would be taken away from all the moaners on this thread and given to people who actually deserve them. But instead every thread is filled with people "doing their own research' , spreading the virus, and filling hospital beds.

Hoarding why do I "not matter" and my opinions "not matter"?! Does that apply to everyone, do you and your opinions matter because they are different to mine? How about the doctors and nurses who have chosen not to be vaccinated, do they and their opinions matter?