Anti vaxxers question *title edited by MNHQ at OP's request*

[whywouldntyou]

Watching the local news last week our local hospitals ITU is 6/8 full with covid patients. All unvaccinated. Youngest is 20 with no underlying heath conditions. I am continually hearing about covid patients in or just out of ITU saying 'I wish I'd got the jab'.

How do you (as an anti vaxxer) reconcile your attitude but still expecting to be treated in ITU? If they said ' right, no jab, no ITU bed' would you still refuse the vaccine?

What would it (genuinely) take for you to have the jab having seen all the other anti vaxxers encouraging people to have it after realising how ill they were?

Any bored antivaxxers can enjoy reading about their peers here.

www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/

@Kendodd

What astonishes me about anti vaxxers is that they somehow think they know more about covid and vaccines that the collective experts of the WHO, the CDC, the NHS, PHE, and the EMA. I just cringe for them sometimes.

OP actually made this thread to ask a question to antiwaxxers. Think you got confused 🙈

@foxgoosefinch

Also, just on yet another thing, Ebola is actually much harder to contract than Covid. It has a high mortality rate, but can only be transmitted by direct contact with body fluids - it is easy to protect yourself against it unless you are medical staff. It is not airborne and has a much lower transmission rate than measles or Covid, say.

It’s also a big, funny shaped slow-mutating virus that is very stable compared to a coronavirus. Very different to Covid. The risk of getting it during an outbreak would be much less than Covid. It’s on the high infectivity list because haemorrhagic fevers require very specialist treatment by medical staff and specialist protection.

Your risk assessment is not accurate if you think you’d be in more danger from Ebola. You might think so based on fear and not much knowledge. But whatever your opinion, you’d still be wrong about the facts of relative risk.

Fox do you deliberately misintrep things? My risk of contracting ebola might well be lower than that of contracting covid. It's the risk of the illness to me that I'm talking about. That is the risk I'm using to decide if I'd get a vaccine, for ebola, scary, quite deadly, not a lot I could do to protect myself once I'd caught it, so yep jab me up. Covid, no, much smaller risk to me once I've got it, so no thank you, I won't be needing the jab. But I think you know that don't you.

Do you get all your information from the government website or do you read independent studies/research?

Any time anyone says this - you’ve just broadcast that you haven’t got a clue how scientific research works and that these “independent studies” mean any old rubbish on the interwebs. 😂

*misinterpret, sorry. Too tired.

@user52673882829

Also RTFT if you want to know why pinky is wrong or I suppose you won’t understand as you share the same dumb opinions

Funny that you still haven’t answered.

And if you RTFT then you’d know that I am fully vaccinated based on my own carefully considered judgement. I am defending her because I think she is entitled to use that same judgement without people telling her she’s ‘wrong’ (and ‘silly’ and ‘dumb’). And I hate bullies

@DontBuyANewMumCashmere

How do you (as an anti vaxxer) reconcile your attitude but still expecting to be treated in ITU? If they said 'right, no jab, no ITU bed' would you still refuse the vaccine?

I've also had both jabs and will have booster. I often think about vaccine reluctant people and how they feel if they need hospital treatment, and genuinely did think 'Perhaps they shouldn't have treatment', but then it clicked that this is really unhealthy, horrid way of thinking - I have been a heavy drinker in my youth, a rugby player, overweight, safe driver but a speeder etc, and luckily never needed medical treatment, but imagine I did and was told I shouldn't get help because it was my own fault!

I also had two home births, the second of which I developed complications after the birth and needed to be transferred to hospital - imagine if I was not eligible because I had chosen a home birth...

I just think we shouldn't refuse medical help to anyone, for any reason.

That's actually a very human way of thinking and I applaud you for this cause there's not many vaccinated people who look at this from this point of view

@foxgoosefinch

Do you get all your information from the government website or do you read independent studies/research?

Any time anyone says this - you’ve just broadcast that you haven’t got a clue how scientific research works and that these “independent studies” mean any old rubbish on the interwebs. 😂

Okies fox, please tell us stoooopid people how we should be studying in order to decide what we put in our bodies?

@foxgoosefinch

Do you get all your information from the government website or do you read independent studies/research?

Any time anyone says this - you’ve just broadcast that you haven’t got a clue how scientific research works and that these “independent studies” mean any old rubbish on the interwebs. 😂

I’m clearly not talking about weird sites on the internet.

I suppose I’m asking how much you trust Boris and his government.

@Bluepinkyellowcakes

No it was for gladioli but its a genuine question so yeah of you have the answer that would be good. I realise it's a bit jumbled, am getting tired 😂 will try to find a link, but I thought I read that they wereeasurimg how many vaxxed versus unvaxxed had died but were doing so from the beginning of the rollout, so saying that during that time period more unvaxxed died, when that would obviously be the case since at the start hardly anyone was jabbed. Is that better?! I'm not looking for an argument at all by the way, it's a question, that's all, if they now have info that shows that more unvaccinated die than vaccinated that would be interesting. Although writing that I see there's a problem that now most are jabbed, so it would show more jabbed die.... Tired ramblings now!

That makes sense as a question:

So what they are looking at is proportions. The maths is easier with equal numbers but it's totally doable with uneven numbers too.

Essentially a much lower proportion of vaccinated people get COVID (and die of COVID) compared to the proportion of (age and sex matched) unvaccinated people.

In a mo I'll do an example with different numbers of people in each group: but the study trials for the vaccination approvals will have been done with equal numbers in each group. They then do whole of population assessments but you have more confounding factors in those (because of age and risk factors as discussed above, which are harder to control for when you review on a population basis).

Different numbers:

Let's imagine we've got 100,000 age and sex matched people. 90,000 have had the vaccine, 10,000 haven't.

Of the 10,000 people let's say, 1,000 get symptomatic COVID and 10 die.

Of the 90,000 people, 450 get symptomatic COVID (and in this example let's assume once you've got COVID your chance of dying is the same - in reality it is lower), and 5 die (rounding up).

Looking at the numbers straight up it might look like being vaccinated only halves your likelihood of Covid (1000 Vs 450). But the 1000 was out of 10,000 and the 450 was out of 90,000.

So in this example (which is just a set of numbers put in to show how the statistics work) you had a 1/10 chance of catching it if unvaccinated (1,000/10,000) Vs a 1/200 chance of catching it if you were vaccinated (450/90,000). So 20x lower.

That's just an example but it shows you how the calculations and the proportionality works even if you have different sized groups for vaccinated Vs unvaccinated people - it doesn't ruin or skew the study.

I suppose I’m asking how much you trust Boris and his government.

Did you read the study linked to on that Yougov page, the one the data is based on?

Here you go:
khub.net/documents/135939561/390853656/Impact+of+vaccination+on+household+transmission+of+SARS-COV-2+in+England.pdf/35bf4bb1-6ade-d3eb-a39e-9c9b25a8122a?t=1619601878136

Do you think Boris wrote it?

@foxgoosefinch

I suppose I’m asking how much you trust Boris and his government.

Did you read the study linked to on that Yougov page, the one the data is based on?

Here you go:
khub.net/documents/135939561/390853656/Impact+of+vaccination+on+household+transmission+of+SARS-COV-2+in+England.pdf/35bf4bb1-6ade-d3eb-a39e-9c9b25a8122a?t=1619601878136

Do you think Boris wrote it?

Of course, but that was back in April. New research since then has shown that yes, the vaccine does reduce transmission for a short while, but within 3 months it appears to go back up to 67%, which is the same as in the unvaccinated population. So yes there are gains but they are short-lived.

It’s an ongoing situation with new data all the time unfortunately.

@whywouldntyou

Watching the local news last week our local hospitals ITU is 6/8 full with covid patients. All unvaccinated. Youngest is 20 with no underlying heath conditions. I am continually hearing about covid patients in or just out of ITU saying 'I wish I'd got the jab'.

How do you (as an anti vaxxer) reconcile your attitude but still expecting to be treated in ITU? If they said ' right, no jab, no ITU bed' would you still refuse the vaccine?

What would it (genuinely) take for you to have the jab having seen all the other anti vaxxers encouraging people to have it after realising how ill they were?

Lots of people who have no had the covid vaccine have had all their other vaccines, I'd hardly call such people anti-vaxxers.

However, as far as being treated. We treat all kinds of people and give them expensive, time consuming treatments. People who do dangerous sports. People who overdose on drugs. People who who sell drugs and get shot by gang members. People who are political dissidents. Prisoners of war.

As for people who didn't get vaccinated but now have regrets, I don't think that kind of argument is usually convincing to most people, and it's not like it encompases everyone who gets sick either.

Thanks for taking the time to do that gladioli that makes sense.

That's actually a very human way of thinking and I applaud you for this cause there's not many vaccinated people who look at this from this point of view

It's the basis of our whole medical system. It should be shocking that people seem to think it should be up for question.

Can you even imagine hospitals or surgeries turning away patients with diseases and injuries they felt were self-inflicted?

www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/articles/deathsinvolvingcovid19byvaccinationstatusengland/deathsoccurringbetween2januaryand2july2021
Sorry for megalink. Gladioli this is what I was thinking of, I see it as skewed because there were more people during that time period who were unvaxxed so naturally would be higher numbers.
Your workings make sense, but wanted to add link showing what I was talking about because I'll be accused of making it up otherwise (not necessarily by you!)

Yes, that’s why they are rolling out booster jabs, PHE has done research on this as well, I hope you do end up taking the jabs if not already @BoPeeple

@LobsterNapkin

That's actually a very human way of thinking and I applaud you for this cause there's not many vaccinated people who look at this from this point of view

It's the basis of our whole medical system. It should be shocking that people seem to think it should be up for question.

Can you even imagine hospitals or surgeries turning away patients with diseases and injuries they felt were self-inflicted?

I don’t think anyone is really seriously advocating refusing care to antivaxxers. However, we might be pointing out that a large number of antivaxxers rely on this fact and an entitlement (called a “right” on this thread), to have expensive treatment even if they have refused a vaccination that would give better protection to them and others who might end up in that situation.

The combination of thinking that risk only applies to yourself, talking about a right to care but then also displaying absolute contempt for medical staff who would have to deliver that care (including talking about how they knew what they were getting into), is a rather toxic blend of entitlement and ignorance.

I know friends who are cardiac consultants who went in to do extra nursing shifts in ICU when there wasn’t enough staff, nurses who moved into the local travelodge got months to avoid infecting vulnerable family members, people who barely saw their kids. The whole bloody hope of the vaccination strategy was that it would bring down the terrible pressure on the NHS. But some people seem to only really think about me me me, yet have an expectation that they can take up care if necessary; that’s not right.

If you don't want an mRNA vaccine then why not get the Astra Zeneca or J&J?

I just used 'RNA' as a quick catch all assuming people would know what I mean.

To clarify, I'd rather not take my chances with the tells your body to make spike protein vaccines when I have a minuscule risk of becoming seriously ill with Covid.

The only reason I'd be considering getting vaccinated is so I could stop with the LFTs (I'm in Scotland so vax passports but some places let you in with neg test). I don't WANT to get vaccinated for that reason because it feels like coercion.

But, I'll probably consider getting the Novavax because it's the same type of vaccine as one I've already had and initial reports suggest much less side effects, which was a concern for me with the existing ones. (And no, I don't mean infertility or dropping down dead of a heart attack on a football pitch - I'm purely talking about the headaches and days off work which is something I'd rather not deal with being self employed).

I still don't think I need it, it would purely be so I could go places. Coerced consent.

I think education is terrible and people don't understand statistics. 99% survival rate doesn't mean "you'll be fine, almost certainly". It means "make a list with 100 people you like. One of them is going to die and 50 more will get their quality of life ruined for who knows how long"

What is so difficult to understand about, it's your choice whether or not to get vaccinated but other people have a right to wish not to be in your company if you don't?

And if that means you are excluded from certain activities to reduce the risk of covid in those places, for the benefit of others, that's perfectly reasonable.

It's all well and good to talk about personal rights. But take it to its extreme and work out how much we all rely on the society we live in. Try building your own house, growing your own food, providing your own transport without anyone else's help, your own education, health care, communications technology, policing, defence, etc etc. So easy to expect all the benefits of living in a society.
What about the vulnerable people that work in shops, on buses, etc etc? Oh yeah, course it's their choice to do that job - not what they signed up for though was it? And where exactly are all the jobs where they don't have to mix with people who have no regard for their safety?
And yes, that berrylands.

This drawing says it all for me.

whywouldntyou

That article you posted last night. Did you read the part that said the man who died was 19 stone? It’s extremely sad, but he must have been overweight, most likely obese at that weight.

Youkiddingme, think that through to its logical conclusion - so we have a vaccine passport, you've had your vaccine so why oppose it? But you're only classed as fully vaxxed if you've had boosters so each time you HAVE to get the booster to interact with society. You then had a terrible reaction and didn't want the next one, oh dear, you're then one of the unvaccinated - nope you cannot enter society.

Once you agree to give up your freedoms to the state, they aren't coming back. What happens if they add another vaccine to the passport and that's one you don't want? Or they say that coffee is now a banned substance so you can't drink that? It may sound like a conspiracy but that's the logical trajectory to giving the state so much power over bodily autonomy, you do as we say or we will ostracise you from society. Scary and dystopian.

@Bluepinkyellowcakes

My risk is already super low, maybe 1% risk of dying maximum. I'm happy with that! Take a vaccine to reduce it to 0.5% (maybe, not proven), why?! I don't see the point. I also would then face risk of reactions from the jab, however small. Currently my risk of that is 0%. Plus my "stance" is partly down to the fact that I won't be coerced or bullied into it. Our right to say no, to choose what goes I to our bodies is so important. I'll stand up for that with my incredibly low risk of serious illness or death thanks :-)

@Bluepinkyellowcakes understanding that Covid19 is highly transmissible and has had a case fatality rate that (during this pandemic) has ranged from upwards of 15% earlier on in the pandemic (pre-vaccine) to as low as ~3% (post vaccine roll out) do you not the see the argument that the deadliness of this disease has been greatly reduced by vaccination?

It is acknowledged that mutations generally emanate from 2 groups of people: the unvaccinated and the immunosuppressed. In crude terms this is because the body has no defenses thus its not necessarily able to clear the virus hence allowing it to replicate / mutate ( because that's what viruses do to survive & why we have vaccinations to limit their ability to propagate). The unvaccinated / immunosuppressed becomes a petri dish which can then pass a mutated version on to another host (essentially enabling the virus to continue it's grip and find more hosts to infect). Are you willing to be that petri dish?

With that in mind what upsets me is the lack of a sense of social responsibility to be vaccinated. I'm all for personal choice but I can't help feeling that in exercising my right to personal choice I do not have the right to limit those choices available to others. Refusing to be vaccinated removes choices from others. You may well be fine (and I hope you are) but what of the others who must suffer more as a consequence of your choices? Why is your right to choose more important than the right of others to live freely as you do?

While I accept your personal choice to not vaccinate, I feel sad that as a consequence of your and many others opting to not be vaccinated I and many others like me will have to continue to live constrained lives so you can exercise your right to choose. We aren't blessed with good health or the luxury to ignore the risk.

Finally, please do not draw comparisons between people being unhappy about those who refuse to be vaccinated (in a global pandemic that has claimed the lives of millions) with coercive behavior. Having been in an abusive relationship I find the suggestion these 2 things are the same offensive in the extreme.