Vaccine for 5+

[NotTheBaby]

It’s on sky news now. Leaked document stating 5 year olds and above to be vaccinated from spring. I’m so hesitant to get my children done, when I couldn’t wait for mine. Why is this so much harder than it should be? Or am I just overthinking it?

@Hotcoffee10

The RCPCH also have concerns about childhood Covid vaccination. www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/11/20/covid-vaccines-could-offered-children-young-five-next-spring/ Almost makes you wonder why the government are briefing the press about it when the medical regulators haven’t made a decision yet.

Yup, RCHPH concerns are specifically about the risk of myocarditis and myocarditis outcomes (severity, how long does it last etc) in this age group, which needs to be established. They say, as has been discussed on the thread, that real-world evidence from places like Israel and the US will need to be used to evaluate this against risks of infection.

I hear you!!!!! It's only a matter of time! Don't people on mumsnet see the news, looks whats going on in Europe, people are protesting because their freedoms have been taken away both vaccinated and unvaccinated.

I think there are too many that think this kind of control will be limited to vaccines @whymewhyme

The way I see it - this is not purely about vaccines. I have no idea what it's about but wonder:

Governments around the world need to have tighter control over all of us if they are to tackle the huge problems that face them with the climate crisis. I wonder whether this is a precursor to that.

Whether it is or isn't - we all need to be worried because this isn't going to stick just with vaccines and it will begin to affect all of us. It already has.

My objection is having to choose between infection or vaccination for young DC while safer mitigations like testing and ventillation are largely ignored.

@ollyollyoxenfree not yet there hasn’t no. But you would be foolish to think that there won’t be longer term.
12-15’s will be offered the second jab. Then the rest of the world won’t let them in unless jabbed.
Same will happen for all children eventually.
I predict that by this time next year, unless you and all your children are fully jabbed you won’t be travelling anywhere much.

[quote Silverswirl]@ollyollyoxenfree not yet there hasn’t no. But you would be foolish to think that there won’t be longer term.
12-15’s will be offered the second jab. Then the rest of the world won’t let them in unless jabbed.
Same will happen for all children eventually.
I predict that by this time next year, unless you and all your children are fully jabbed you won’t be travelling anywhere much.[/quote]
Yes- there's an increasing number of countries that specifcally require vaccination of 12-15 year olds.

But I was specifically talking about domestic restrictions here in the UK, the likelihood of anything being mandated for children.

"My 8yo is desperate to get his, so he can protect his brother and Nan. I've always said that the final decision would be his. He understands that I've had my 3 jabs to protect the same people and he wants his.
Mind he has seen his brother very poorly from a bog standard cold"

"I actually find it awfully sad that 8 year olds are carrying that weight of responsibility on their shoulders- being asked to make decisions that they can't possibly understand so choose based on guilt alone. My high school dd was allowed to make her own choice, I'll be taking responsibility for deciding for my 8 year old"

I dunno, I have always given my young children the final say on serious decisions re their health, doesn't everyone?

@ollyollyoxenfree that’s not what the article said actually. It said as healthy kids are so low risk there has to be a very very high safety bar.

Front line paediatricians have consistently not advocated for vaccinating children rapidly. Advocates for rapid vaccination of children include Devi Sridhar - a well connected American university professor with no qualifications in virology, immunology or clinical medicine who nonetheless went on BBC news round and told children the vaccines were completely safe. Inexplicably she advises the Scottish Government.

The safety data in older age groups is concerning as I’ve linked upthread these novel vaccines or drugs are associated with a higher rate of adverse events than any other licensed vaccine. Other posters dismissed the safety reports as biased. Maybe they are but then how do we know the vaccine is safe? How will the data from Israel and the States let us know that?

Posters on here are already keen to vaccinate their children despite this safety data not being available. Why?

The government are briefing the press not that they will ask the JCVI to consider vaccinating kids but that it will happen in the spring. There is a concerted effort to make parents accept this is the right thing to do and create conditions were it will be hard for a balanced decision that focuses on the best interests of children not societal benefits.

We as parents need to make sure we are very clear with the government and the medical regulators that any decision must have the best interests of children at heart.

Silverswirl
Please tell me why people are saying ‘it’s a choice’ ‘it’s not mandatory’? Are you really so blind and naïve or deliberately ignoring what’s going on?
Unvaccinated adults are gradually getting shut out of things. Their choices are getting limited. The same thing will happen with all children eventually. Anyone who things otherwise is just being naïve.
Many people worry that this vaxx will be mandatory by coercion. It’s just not as simple as ‘oh well don’t go on holiday then’ or ‘just don’t visit a resturant then’. When (yes when) these rules come in, the pressure to vaccinate your child will be enormous as so much of their life will be affected if you don’t want them having the vaxx.
This is NOT choice.
Why can’t previous posters constantly trotting out ‘whats your problem, it’s a choice’ see that. No it fucking well isn’t.*
I hear you!!!!! It's only a matter of time! Don't people on mumsnet see the news, looks whats going on in Europe, people are protesting because their freedoms have been taken away both vaccinated and unvaccinated.*

I hear you too. Plenty do and agree but they're not on MN, no point discussing bodily autonomy (when it comes to vaccines) on MN. You're just wrong if you're wary of the Covid jab ... just shut up

@Silverswirl

Please tell me why people are saying ‘it’s a choice’ ‘it’s not mandatory’? Are you really so blind and naïve or deliberately ignoring what’s going on? Unvaccinated adults are gradually getting shut out of things. Their choices are getting limited. The same thing will happen with all children eventually. Anyone who things otherwise is just being naïve. Many people worry that this vaxx will be mandatory by coercion. It’s just not as simple as ‘oh well don’t go on holiday then’ or ‘just don’t visit a resturant then’. When (yes when) these rules come in, the pressure to vaccinate your child will be enormous as so much of their life will be affected if you don’t want them having the vaxx. This is NOT choice. Why can’t previous posters constantly trotting out ‘whats your problem, it’s a choice’ see that. No it fucking well isn’t.

It’s already happening in Australia, kid’s can’t attend graduations, formals, sports etc unless they are vaccinated and it has just been leaked to the press that Victoria won’t rule out excluding children 5-11 from activities if/when the vaccine becomes available for them. So yes, it’s a real possibility for me in my country that this will not be a “choice”, unless of course not vaccinating my 5 year old deserves such consequences!

[quote Hotcoffee10]@ollyollyoxenfree that’s not what the article said actually. It said as healthy kids are so low risk there has to be a very very high safety bar.

Front line paediatricians have consistently not advocated for vaccinating children rapidly. Advocates for rapid vaccination of children include Devi Sridhar - a well connected American university professor with no qualifications in virology, immunology or clinical medicine who nonetheless went on BBC news round and told children the vaccines were completely safe. Inexplicably she advises the Scottish Government.

The safety data in older age groups is concerning as I’ve linked upthread these novel vaccines or drugs are associated with a higher rate of adverse events than any other licensed vaccine. Other posters dismissed the safety reports as biased. Maybe they are but then how do we know the vaccine is safe? How will the data from Israel and the States let us know that?

Posters on here are already keen to vaccinate their children despite this safety data not being available. Why?

The government are briefing the press not that they will ask the JCVI to consider vaccinating kids but that it will happen in the spring. There is a concerted effort to make parents accept this is the right thing to do and create conditions were it will be hard for a balanced decision that focuses on the best interests of children not societal benefits.

We as parents need to make sure we are very clear with the government and the medical regulators that any decision must have the best interests of children at heart.[/quote]
Not sure how that contradicts what I said?

Yup, RCHPH concerns are specifically about the risk of myocarditis and myocarditis outcomes (severity, how long does it last etc) in this age group, which needs to be established. They say, as has been discussed on the thread, that real-world evidence from places like Israel and the US will need to be used to evaluate this against risks of infection.

Importantly, they are not concerned about this idea that somehow vaccinating children will lead to worse immunity.

The safety data in older age groups is concerning as I’ve linked upthread these novel vaccines or drugs are associated with a higher rate of adverse events than any other licensed vaccine. Other posters dismissed the safety reports as biased.
@Hotcoffee10 there has been plenty of discussion regarding why yellow card/vaers data cannot be used to infer causality, and why it is so important to correct for total number of doses given AND the underlying rate of whatever side effect you're concerned about in the general population. It's not that it's "biased", it's that it cannot be used in the way you're attempting to do so.

Maybe they are but then how do we know the vaccine is safe? How will the data from Israel and the States let us know that?
More doses given means increased statistical power to see at what rate rare side effects emerge, and whether these are greater than risk of COVID infection in this age group. You can never know that any intervention/medication/vaccine is "safe", but it does enable an informed risk/benefit analysis to be done.

The government are briefing the press not that they will ask the JCVI to consider vaccinating kids but that it will happen in the spring. There is a concerted effort to make parents accept this is the right thing to do and create conditions were it will be hard for a balanced decision that focuses on the best interests of children not societal benefits. @Hotcoffee10

Again, I struggle to get on board with this idea when we are not seeing anything like it with 12-15 year olds.

CMOs statement:
If ministers accept this advice, it is essential that children and young people aged 12 to 15 and their parents are supported in their decisions, whatever decisions they take, and are not stigmatised either for accepting, or not accepting, the vaccination offer. Individual choice should be respected.

You should be a politician @ollyollyoxenfree

@Hotcoffee10

You should be a politician *@ollyollyoxenfree*

Urm ok, I assume you're implying I'm lying.

What part of my post do you think isn't truthful?

Pros
No isolation because you have 5:95 chance of catching it so 1/20
Safer visiting older relatives
Travel? Less chance of cancelled holiday uk or abroad
Could affect travel insurance
Cdc say yes
Less chance of teacher getting long term sick
Reduced lc risk by 50% in adults (and you have to catch first see above)
Link covid to possible t1 diabetes
Autoimmune issues
Pims reduced maybe?
What happens if a child develops cancer with no prior or current covid immunity?
I read 10,000 covid hospitalisation so approx 1/1000 children ? And that is so far as not all kids have had it
The majority of the world are trying to prevent children catching it for the childs sake. Ie wearing masks at school
Cons
Myocarditis (but less common than actual covid) more common in boys

You are not answering the question which one last time is.

If the safety data on this vaccine/drug given to older age groups shows adverse drug reactions far in excess of any other licensed vaccine and the clinical trial in children was too small to detect rare but serious adverse events and we acknowledge children are at very low risk of a serious outcome from covid.

Then why do you think vaccinating healthy children is in their best interests?

@Hotcoffee10

You are not answering the question which one last time is.

If the safety data on this vaccine/drug given to older age groups shows adverse drug reactions far in excess of any other licensed vaccine and the clinical trial in children was too small to detect rare but serious adverse events and we acknowledge children are at very low risk of a serious outcome from covid.

Then why do you think vaccinating healthy children is in their best interests?

But I have answered this question?

If the safety data on this vaccine/drug given to older age groups shows adverse drug reactions far in excess of any other licensed vaccine

The safety data doesn't say what you're claiming it is. There have been many many posts explaining why yellow card/vaers cannot (and is not) used in this way.

the clinical trial in children was too small to detect rare but serious adverse events
All trials are underpowered to detect rare effects (severe or otherwise). The fact that we have now given out a billion doses means fortunately we are not relying on such a small sample size.

Then why do you think vaccinating healthy children is in their best interests?
I've never said it is for 5-11 year olds. You keep claiming I've said things that I most definitely have not - I keep requoting my first post on this thread but to no avail.

I've repeatedly said I'd like to see more evidence for this specific age group. For 12-15 year olds, it is clear that it is in their best interests, and there isn't a strong rationale for thinking that side effects are suddenly going to be more common, or more severe, in children under this age bracket. The overall benefit may be so minimal to the point where there isn't a strong enough justification to invest the resources in rolling it out, but that isn't what you are trying to claim.

I'm also not sure why you insist on referring to the vaccines as drugs @Hotcoffee10?

Right thanks, so we cannot say, from the available evidence that it is in the best interests of healthy children to receive the covid vaccine. Looks like we agree after all.

@Hotcoffee10

Right thanks, so we cannot say, from the available evidence that it is in the best interests of healthy children to receive the covid vaccine. Looks like we agree after all.

@Hotcoffee10

Right thanks, so we cannot say, from the available evidence that it is in the best interests of healthy children to receive the covid vaccine
I have said from the beginning of the thread I do not think there is enough evidence regarding 5-11 year olds.

As have posted quite a few times, I definitely do not agree with your posts which tend to exaggerate the risks of vaccination (notable misuse of the yellow card data) whilst downplaying the benefits, and the general minimisation of the impact of coronavirus on children

@Ionsion

Mine won’t be getting it. I won’t be risking their health for the greater good and benefit of those older than them. If that means not going to certain places then fine. I’m really angry that governments think it’s ok for young children to be experimented on. And I say this as someone who is double jabbed and waiting to get my booster shot.

Same here, word for word:)

I hear you too. Plenty do and agree but they're not on MN, no point discussing bodily autonomy (when it comes to vaccines) on MN. You're just wrong if you're wary of the Covid jab ...

Ah - it is just Mumsnet. I've been finding that and wondered how there could be such a difference in attitudes.

It seems strange to me though as surely mums would want to be super cautious - or at least look at things from all sides before making a decision to inject their child with a new medicine.

In this respect Mumsnet seems more narrow in it's outlook than anywhere else. Are this many mums really so into following the crowd, unthinking and blinkered?

@HSHorror the vaccine does not reduce your risk of getting covid by 95% - that is very very clear from real life adult data.
If you get covid the vaccination does not reduce your chance of transmitting it. The vaccine mainly helps with hospitalisation and death which is why it is a good idea for at risk adults, less so for healthy kids.

Children who incidentally test positive for covid while hospitalised for another reason are not hospitalised with Covid. Paediatricians have always been very clear Covid is not a major threat to healthy children.

If every country agrees to vaccinate kids then yes travel may be a problem for unvaccinated children. But that is a choice policy makers make, not an inevitability.

Alternatively doctors and policy makers could actually put children first for once and not vaccinate until it is very clear it is in children’s best interests.

I’ve got to go and get DS up for his nap now so I won’t be able to reply to the inevitable “yes, but” but in all seriousness I think as parents we should be banging the drum loudly for a best interests non political decision on this - not for vaccinating kids because it seems like a good thing to do and everyone else is doing it.

@Hotcoffee10

You should be a politician *@ollyollyoxenfree*

maybe he/she already is

Maybe there should be a choice in due course (when/if the UK decides to follow the rest of Western medicine) so that parents who think vaccination is a better option than infection can take advantage of the benefits of modern medicine?

If you get covid the vaccination does not reduce your chance of transmitting it

This is not true - several population-based studies now showing lower viral load and reduced window of infectiousness in those vaccinated compared those unvaccinated.

Think I've already linked you to those @Hotcoffee10