Vaccine for 5+

[NotTheBaby]

It’s on sky news now. Leaked document stating 5 year olds and above to be vaccinated from spring. I’m so hesitant to get my children done, when I couldn’t wait for mine. Why is this so much harder than it should be? Or am I just overthinking it?

I'm here reading this not because I have younger children. I'm still wavering over what to do with my older children. But my gut feeling is still making me waver and question. As a mother I think that gut feeling is very very important.

We come on here and want to talk about that instinct and then get shouted at by people who think they know it all and insist on robust evidence.This is Mumsnet. We are, most of us, mothers who want to do the best for our children. We want to talk about that with other mothers. Not get shouted down and told to shut up because we're not clever enough. So what if we don't have a science background? This is not scientistnet. This is mumsnet. Please give us some credit for being mums who want to do the best for our children.

But honestly, how are scary untrue claims about vaccines helpful when you're considering the hypothetical scenario of vaccination? Be it implications that people are going to be forced into it (when this is something that could potentially be offered in April) or exaggeration about side effects/deaths or ideas that it's going to lead to problems with immunity in the future.

I haven't seen anyone being told to shut up because they're not clever or because they're talking about parental instinct -or anyone be told to shut up at all - but just challenged when they're posting things that aren't true and are muddying the waters, causing anxiety, and making a complex decision even trickier.

@NeverSurrender

DH, teenage DD and I have had it without too much thought tbh, but I'd be a lot more cautious about giving it to my younger primary aged DC. Mainly because it's so new, and younger dc are a low risk for COVID.

What ? My DS had covid, he's 5 and 18 children out of a class of 28 caught it. The teacher has long covid now despite being double jabbed. I caught it too and I'm jabbed, it was quite bad, so it's a nasty illness.

I would get my DS jabbed and my 2 year old if offered.

I'm in a different situation because one of my children is immunocompromised. Also, we were shielding. Vaccination is a really good idea for our family and we are all as vaccinated as we can be.

Having said that, as a doctor, I know very well that viral infections can have long lasting effects like fatigue (after glandular fever) or even loss of fertility (mumps for example) . You'd expect problems to be far more likely to happen and more serious after infection not after vaccination.

There are also the issues of really wanting children to have less disrupted schooling and to be able to enjoy a social life and hobbies after this very difficult year and a half. That will be helped along a lot if there's less spread in the community.

So, while I can understand that there are questions in this new situation, I also think there are really good reasons for going ahead with vaccinations (but of course, if people feel that it is right for them and their families).

What about children that live with a CEV parent/family member? The whole family will get a flu jab to protect that person, so why not a Covid jab too? The weakest link in a family is the primary school age child (and younger)
I struggle to understand reluctance to vaccinate - if there is so much concern about controlling what goes into your own or your child's body what about highly processed food, exposure to chemicals in toiletries, cleaning products, certain household paints, carpets etc....I trust Dr Sarah Gilbert and her ilk far more than I do any of the manufacturers of these products.

@TotoShetland

All this talk of misinformation and robust evidence.

I think this is a red herring.

I'm here reading this not because I have younger children. I'm still wavering over what to do with my older children. But my gut feeling is still making me waver and question. As a mother I think that gut feeling is very very important.

Of course we take in as much information (we hope it's not misinformation but how can we ever know for sure? How do we know what's truly bona fide? None of us do) as we can. We balance it all up. We look at our individual circumstances and our particular children and we go on our gut feeling.

I think this pressure that you talk about @Russianmax is making so many of us panic because it's stopping us from listening to our own instinct.

We come on here and want to talk about that instinct and then get shouted at by people who think they know it all and insist on robust evidence.

This is Mumsnet. We are, most of us, mothers who want to do the best for our children. We want to talk about that with other mothers. Not get shouted down and told to shut up because we're not clever enough. So what if we don't have a science background? This is not scientistnet. This is mumsnet. Please give us some credit for being mums who want to do the best for our children.

👏 couldn’t agree more.

I’m seeing more and more discussion shut down if you don’t provide “robust evidence”, that we don’t understand what it means, laypeople can’t understand the data etc.
It’s an echo chamber of people all agreeing with each other and anybody who dares to ask a question or has a different view is quickly silenced.

Ours are adults now (18 and 26 and both fully vaccinated, their decisions) but we’d not have hesitated when they were 5 because we both trust in science and scientists (as opposed to politicians!)

(Our daughter was in the very first HPV cohort so my words aren’t hollow rhetoric. With the recent 90% cervical cancer reduction findings, we’ll be eternally grateful)

@Crabapple04

What about children that live with a CEV parent/family member? The whole family will get a flu jab to protect that person, so why not a Covid jab too? The weakest link in a family is the primary school age child (and younger) I struggle to understand reluctance to vaccinate - if there is so much concern about controlling what goes into your own or your child's body what about highly processed food, exposure to chemicals in toiletries, cleaning products, certain household paints, carpets etc....I trust Dr Sarah Gilbert and her ilk far more than I do any of the manufacturers of these products.

It’s about weighing up risks. We’ve not had a vaccine for chicken pox in this country as part of the usual childhood vaccines. We accept that for most children, chicken pox is a harmless disease, though with some discomfort, which then provides lifelong immunity. We are fine with our children getting chicken pox and aren’t requesting the vaccine despite one being available. Most children will also be fine from contracting covid and hopefully will have natural immunity for a while. Some people find this preferable to the vaccine.

Well, there are also very good arguments for the chickenpox vaccine (which is very safe) and many parents choose that, rather than have their children get ill with an unpleasant and potentially harmful illness.

I’d get my children vaccinated but then I paid for them to have the chicken pox vaccine too. We’re practically the only western country that doesn’t offer chicken pox vaccine and the justification is to protect adults from shingles rather than in the kids’ interests. Other countries have queried our CP approach with kids just like they now query our Covid approach.

Immunity to Covid seems to wane too. My niece caught it twice in six months (she’s 7). It’s not even like CP.

All that said I think jabs for 5+ should be a choice. I wouldn’t insist anyone else should have them at all

And that’s what it would be. A choice.

It’s ages away don’t stress about it.

Yes I do understand about weighing up the risks, as everyone's individual risk is different and again that changes when there is a CEV in your household- the unvaccinated school age child is increasing the risk of transmission to that person then becoming infected could cause severe complications. Whereas vaccination would greatly reduce that risk and be of great benefit to those in that situation- no need to shield etc..

I believe Covid vaccinations offer a broader immune response than that offered from infection alone which is why the medic on "you and yours" stressed that vaccination is still the way to go.

I looked for the data too and found this.

The axis isn’t very clearly labelled - I think it is saying >100 admissions per day but I could be wrong and it might be per week. Either way, it is certainly multiple times higher than the rate for adults aged over 24.

Children aren’t dying, but they are definitely getting admitted to hospital.

Ugh posted in response to another thread!!

@mehface how many of those kids from your child’s class are suffering long COVID

The RCPCH also have concerns about childhood Covid vaccination. www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/11/20/covid-vaccines-could-offered-children-young-five-next-spring/
Almost makes you wonder why the government are briefing the press about it when the medical regulators haven’t made a decision yet.

@Changechangychange those are hospital admissions with a positive Covid test, every patient admitted to hospital is tested. Doesn’t mean they were admitted because of Covid.

www.travellingtabby.com/uk-coronavirus-tracker/

This is an excellent source of information for covid figures.

@Changechangychange

I looked for the data too and found this.

The axis isn’t very clearly labelled - I think it is saying >100 admissions per day but I could be wrong and it might be per week. Either way, it is certainly multiple times higher than the rate for adults aged over 24.

Children aren’t dying, but they are definitely getting admitted to hospital.

This data isn’t as bad as you think it is - it’s percentage deviation from the January peak. So if there were (say) 10 kids admitted on 17 Jan (the baseline), then 37% means 13.7 (poor two thirds of a child!) would have been admitted in this reporting week.

A lot of Covid reporting is done against a baseline of the peak and deviation from it, to get a sense of the shape of the progress of the pandemic against a known baseline.

And @Hotcoffee10 is right - the data covers all admissions within 14 days of a positive test.

@Hotcoffee10

The RCPCH also have concerns about childhood Covid vaccination. www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/11/20/covid-vaccines-could-offered-children-young-five-next-spring/ Almost makes you wonder why the government are briefing the press about it when the medical regulators haven’t made a decision yet.

So there will be some groups of parents who are particularly concerned about the situation - imagine having a child in secondary school aged 11 1/2 who is significantly clinically vulnerable to the point where the whole family was shielding, but the child hasn't been able to get vaccinated yet.

I think there should be some movement on this for vulnerable families at an earlier stage, as in this situation there would be a direct and significant benefit to the child, and there are real problems with risks around education for vulnerable kids right now.

Thankfully, my child was over 12 and so was vaccinated, but I know that some families are still in quite a predicament with this.

The risks of death from covid, for example, with immunosuppression in children, are said to be possibly around 100 times higher than for other other children, so start to become a consideration (having said that, I am so so thankful that children have generally been at low risk in the pandemic).

Please tell me why people are saying ‘it’s a choice’ ‘it’s not mandatory’? Are you really so blind and naïve or deliberately ignoring what’s going on?
Unvaccinated adults are gradually getting shut out of things. Their choices are getting limited. The same thing will happen with all children eventually. Anyone who things otherwise is just being naïve.
Many people worry that this vaxx will be mandatory by coercion. It’s just not as simple as ‘oh well don’t go on holiday then’ or ‘just don’t visit a resturant then’. When (yes when) these rules come in, the pressure to vaccinate your child will be enormous as so much of their life will be affected if you don’t want them having the vaxx.
This is NOT choice.
Why can’t previous posters constantly trotting out ‘whats your problem, it’s a choice’ see that. No it fucking well isn’t.

@Silverswirl

Please tell me why people are saying ‘it’s a choice’ ‘it’s not mandatory’? Are you really so blind and naïve or deliberately ignoring what’s going on? Unvaccinated adults are gradually getting shut out of things. Their choices are getting limited. The same thing will happen with all children eventually. Anyone who things otherwise is just being naïve. Many people worry that this vaxx will be mandatory by coercion. It’s just not as simple as ‘oh well don’t go on holiday then’ or ‘just don’t visit a resturant then’. When (yes when) these rules come in, the pressure to vaccinate your child will be enormous as so much of their life will be affected if you don’t want them having the vaxx. This is NOT choice. Why can’t previous posters constantly trotting out ‘whats your problem, it’s a choice’ see that. No it fucking well isn’t.

In the UK, for 12-15 it's still very much a individual decision, and there hasn't been any kind of push to get teens vaccination

See CMO guidance

If ministers accept this advice, it is essential that children and young people aged 12 to 15 and their parents are supported in their decisions, whatever decisions they take, and are not stigmatised either for accepting, or not accepting, the vaccination offer. Individual choice should be respected.

Given that the 5-11 year olds are generally at less risk of COVID than this age group, and the UK was already on the fence about offering vaccination to teens, I do not see a situation in which the vaccine suddenly becomes mandatory for children. Especially given that by Spring (when a decision is expected to be made), there's going to be much higher proportions of children who have previously been infected.

Hopefully by that point we'll have better prediction models for identifying groups of children more likely to get acutely unwell from coronavirus

CMOs on vaccination of 12-15 year olds:

www.gov.uk/government/publications/universal-vaccination-of-children-and-young-people-aged-12-to-15-years-against-covid-19/universal-vaccination-of-children-and-young-people-aged-12-to-15-years-against-covid-19

@Silverswirl

Please tell me why people are saying ‘it’s a choice’ ‘it’s not mandatory’? Are you really so blind and naïve or deliberately ignoring what’s going on? Unvaccinated adults are gradually getting shut out of things. Their choices are getting limited. The same thing will happen with all children eventually. Anyone who things otherwise is just being naïve. Many people worry that this vaxx will be mandatory by coercion. It’s just not as simple as ‘oh well don’t go on holiday then’ or ‘just don’t visit a resturant then’. When (yes when) these rules come in, the pressure to vaccinate your child will be enormous as so much of their life will be affected if you don’t want them having the vaxx. This is NOT choice. Why can’t previous posters constantly trotting out ‘whats your problem, it’s a choice’ see that. No it fucking well isn’t.

I hear you!!!!! It's only a matter of time! Don't people on mumsnet see the news, looks whats going on in Europe, people are protesting because their freedoms have been taken away both vaccinated and unvaccinated.