I have to have the vaccine or I loose my job

[wingingmumlife]

I am absolutely prepared to get flamed for this but I am really worrying.

I am 22 year years old, healthy and unvaccinated (by choice).

I am not anti-vax, I have had every single vaccine from being a child to now and my daughter is up to date with all of hers too.

I work in dentistry and myself and 4 other colleagues have been told we have to be fully vaccinated by April 2022 otherwise, we lose our jobs.

I just can't believe it has come to this. I feel like my human rights have been taken away. I'm not a conspiracy theorist and I am a big believer in science but as a genuine question ... Can someone please tell me why this vaccine is being pushed so much to the point where soon we probably won't be able to even go into a restaurant without having this vaccine?

I have to wear AGP PPE every single day for every single patient but this still isn't enough?

I test myself every single day, but this still isn't enough?

Can someone please help it make sense to me? That is a genuine question.

Im not looking for an argument and I'm not wanting anyone to tell me "how stupid I am" I just want this to make sense.

For anyone wondering why I haven't had the vaccine - the main reason being, I have severe health anxiety, ironic I know since most would think I'd jump for the vaccine, but at the moment I'm more scared of this vaccine then I am of catching Covid itself.

I just feel sick to my stomach at the thought of not having a job unless I have this vaccine, it really doesn't sit well with me but everyone on here seems to be supporting it?

[quote Grenlei]@questionsneverstop gosh, patronise much?!

I cannot bear this rhetoric some have on MN, the stench of sanctimony is just unbearable.

I don't believe that without a vaccine society would now have collapsed and millions would be dead. We'd have worked out a way to live with it just as mankind has with every disease for generations.[/quote]
Well, I do not know if I am patronising... this is just my field so it is not rhetoric, it is science and data.

I am sorry that you don't believe that without a vaccine, we would be out of this. Tell me which killer disease have disappeared without vaccines...
Polio? no, there is a vaccine.
Diphteria? no, there is a vaccine
Measles? no, there is a vaccine
I could continue, but I won't go on.
The fact is: viruses are stronger than animals because they are simple and they can mutate easily. Without vaccines, society cannot win over viruses.

We'd have worked out a way to live with it just as mankind has with every disease for generations.

Like the bubonic plague? Polio? Smallpox? How did those work out?

For anyone wondering why I haven't had the vaccine - the main reason being, I have severe health anxiety, ironic I know since most would think I'd jump for the vaccine, but at the moment I'm more scared of this vaccine then I am of catching Covid itself.

I just feel sick to my stomach at the thought of not having a job unless I have this vaccine, it really doesn't sit well with me but everyone on here seems to be supporting it?

I honestly do wonder how on earth some people ever managed to become mothers. Given the amount of poking around, medical intervention, the fear of pain, the not unreasonable fear of very real and not uncommon potential complications in childbirth, all the weird and unfamiliar symptoms associated with pregnancy and just the general anxiety attached to the entire process of having a baby. It's bad enough for a woman without health anxiety so fuck knows how people like the OP haven't spontaneously combusted and dropped dead from the stress of it.

You can make your brain deal with all of that, deal with your body going through it and come out the other side, mind sane and body intact, but you can't get your head around billions of people having this vaccine and being absolutely fine afterwards.

@Grenlei

your logic is flawed

look at the facts . Of course some people will die who are double vaxed - but there are figures out to show how much less likely you are to end up seriously ill if you are vaccinated .

you are just chosing to ignore the percentage risk factors .

I rang my GP about a deep throbbing pain, they suspected DVT, sent me for a chest x-ray except I didn't have one done but I was scared of radiation risks (even though I use a microwave and have been on aeroplanes) I spent hours researching into x-ray risks and possible side effects until finally I had an x-ray but then suffered with depression after because I though that the x-ray was going to kill me

You work in a dentist though. Someone pointed out you would have had some training in radiation if you work in a dentists?

I'm sure it was on the news the other day that those who have had both vaccines will be classed as unvaccinated until they've had their booster jab? Then what? That expires so you have to have another, then another, then another... You get my point.

I don't, really, There are plenty of vaccines that have to be repeated - not least the flu jab. It's hardly a dreadful imposition having repeated vaccinations.

you are just chosing to ignore the percentage risk factors

But that's the point, surely? That it is a choice. No one should be forced to have a vaccination they don't want, and it certainly shouldn't be made a condition of employment as it is for the OP.

OP if you are still following this, you have a simple choice get the vaccines or change profession.
The writing has been on the wall for HCPs since the vaccines were introduced that they were likely to be mandatory and the fact that any businesses with CQC registration are required to follow this means any patent facing dental professional in either NHS or private practices need to do this.
I think you need to seek additional help with your health anxiety it is taking away your ability to rationalise risk. I was more anxious about getting Covid or long Covid than the vaccine risk.
As a dentist I am just too close to my patients to not want to reduce my risk to myself or them (have had triple vaccines plus Covid). I'm seeing too many CEV patients who are undergoing cancer treatment or seem to have become much frailer to have blind faith that my PPE is enough.

I don't believe that without a vaccine society would now have collapsed and millions would be dead. We'd have worked out a way to live with it

How? Living with it would involve continuing very high hospital admissions and admissions to Intensive Care, preventing treatment for other illnesses. It would involve everyone risking dying of, essentially, drowning in their own secretions. Hospital staff would have to wear PPE all day every day and would be constantly dealing with life or death situations. How long do you imagine they could last? How would we recruit enough intensive care staff? We'd have thousands of people disabled from long term effects. Presumably we'd have to take at least some precautions, so we'd be wearing masks in public for ever, and have permanent social distancing - which would mean many entertainment and social venues wouldn't be economically viable and would close down.

How is all of that a reasonable way to live in comparison with what we have now?

I don't believe that without a vaccine society would now have collapsed and millions would be dead. We'd have worked out a way to live with it just as mankind has with every disease for generations.

Society wouldn't have collapsed, no but there probably would be millions dead, they'd just be the invisible millions. The ones you think don't matter because they were probably going to be dead soon anyway. The elderly, the disabled and extremely clinically vulnerable.

The vast majority of the rest of us, the relatively young, fit and healthy would probably be just fine, after a bit of minor illness.

So when you say things that imply that it really wouldn't be all that catastrophic if we just let the vaccine do its worst, that's what you mean, isn't it?

You mean that so long as people like you and people like you are fine, then fuck everyone else. Fuck the elderly, fuck the young person with Down's Syndrome and a hole in the heart, fuck the cancer patient and fuck her clinically obese friend. Fuck the type 1 diabetic and fuck the person with kidney damage. Fuck em' all. I'm alright jack.

That's what you mean.

No one should be forced to have a vaccination they don't want, and it certainly shouldn't be made a condition of employment as it is for the OP.

If in making your choice, you fail to take into consideration the detrimental impact your choice is having on society, then you canny be surprised if organisations start mitigating that instead.

There's absolutely no reason, in a global pandemic, why those working in close contact with vulnerable people, shouldn't be required to take measures to protect them. Don't like that? Then get another job.

But all this 'my rights, my choice' doesn't seem to involve exercising responsibility or acknowledging that other people have rights too.

@Cam77

Can somebody provide some studies RE vaccinated/unvaccinated transmission rates? Having Googled it, the most widely reported study done in the UK that keeps popping up shows that there is virtually no difference at all in transmission rates...

“Although fully vaccinated people were less likely to contract an infection, when they did — what’s known as a breakthrough infection — they can transmit the Delta variant at a similar level as unvaccinated people. Researchers found that 25 percent of household contacts exposed to a fully vaccinated person in the household contracted an infection themselves. Of those exposed to an unvaccinated household member, 23 percent contracted an infection.
“Breakthrough infections in fully vaccinated people can efficiently transmit infection in the household setting,” wrote the study authors.

@Cam77

Coronavirus infections three times lower in double vaccinated people - REACT
www.imperial.ac.uk/news/227713/coronavirus-infections-three-times-lower-double/

This is from August, based on results when we still had some form of restrictions. Now, with no restrictions and with immunity decreasing, we need the booster, coinciding in the beginning of winter.

Can someone please tell me why this vaccine is being pushed so much

Because Covid-19 is both much more infectious and more dangerous then, e.g. flu. It is less infectious than measles, but much much more dangerous.

For anyone wondering why I haven't had the vaccine - the main reason being, I have severe health anxiety, ironic I know since most would think I'd jump for the vaccine, but at the moment I'm more scared of this vaccine then I am of catching Covid itself

Anxiety is a horrible, horrible thing - which those who have never suffered from it will struggle to understand. It’s a normal self-protective response, but triggered inappropriately and to excess. I think of it as like hay fever of the emotions.

Logically, you are at significantly more risk of harm from Covid than you are from having the vaccine. That is what the statistics clearly demonstrate, which is why it is recommended for your age group.

If the civil liberties thing is truly what motivates you, fair enough. If it’s not that - if that is something you are hanging on to in the hope you can get out of having the vaccine and keep your job - it might be better to put your effect int seeking therapy for your anxiety. Remember: logically and statistically, having the vaccine is safer for you than not having it. It also has the side effect of protecting others around you, as well as removing the threat to your job.

@cam77
Sorry, i sent before finishing.
So, we deduce that transmission in double-jabbed is lower than no-jabbed

Can I ask why you don't want it? Working in dentistry and dealing with aerosols everyday wouldn't you want to protect yourself and patients or just the wider community.

Have you had your hep B?

I see having the vaccine as protecting the nhs by having the vaccine your less likely to need hospitalization if your vaccinated therefore less pressure on the nhs.

My mother is the world's biggest hypochondriac but has never been scared of getting Covid but has found her people in the YouTube conspiracy theories. It's bizarre logic but I guess anxiety isn't logical. I think she feels control by not having the vaccine for some unfathomable reason

Hi
I would address your health anxiety first, its driving you to the point where you cannot get the vaccine. I totally get the health anxiety bit as I was the same for years. CBT and self management cured me of that so it can work for you too.

I am not really going to go into the ethics of being made to have a vaccine - I can see that you are not an anti vaxxer and sound pretty together but you are in a client facing role which is high risk for infection both from clients to you and vice versa. So its probably going to be the case that healthcare/ dentistry will require vaccinations in future.

You have a few choices:
Go sort your health anxiety to get yourself into a place where you can take the vaccine.
OR
Ignore your health anxiety and dont take the vaccine and look for another role where vacination status is less important.

Its your choice.
I had issues about vaccination/ loss of freedoms/ bodily integrity but I decided to get vaccinated. Its bettter gor me, its better for everyone else around me. Covid is going to be about for a long time so we need to work out what we are comfortable wih.

@MauraandLaura

Kikkomam I don't believe people can get double vaccinated and then be so supportive of other people who don't want to get vaccinated

There seems to be an awful lot of them on Mumsnet

I am one of those people. I have been double jabbed. I work with pregnant women in a private capacity so I was able able to choose if I wanted to have it. I didn't want to but I had them because a lot of pregnant women have opted not to have it - which is understandable.

I didn't want to risk the chance of an unvaccinated pregnant women contracting covid from me and being seriously ill ( although very small) on my conscious because I physically come in to contact with them - even though I wear masks and gloves.

I was actually really tearful when I had the first vaccine - I didn't feel like hero or post it on Facebook - virtue signalling ect.. I just felt it was really shit situation that I was having to have a vaccine I did not want. That is genuinely how I felt. And still do.

In some people genuinely the feelings of not wanting a vaccine that most likely will carry no benefit to them is strong and instinctual. People are not stupid - they can access their own risks.

However I fucking hate the way people who have not opted to have it are now being treated. The unvaccinated ... fuck me why not just start asking people to wear arm bands so that people can stand away from them in shops. It's disgusting that the terminology is being used to create a divide in communities and the unvaccinated are a bunch of dirty diseased people.

Thread after thread discussing the unvaccinated. If it wasn't so vile it would be funny - you can actually find the swine flu threads from 2010 on MN and its the same only this time round its worse.

Parents berating other parents for not having their children vaccinated - and I wonder how those parents feel now in light of the cases narcolepsy that came to light YEARS after the kids where given the swine flu vaccine. The Government have only just paid those families out despite being dragged back to the high courts three times.

Its got absolutely fuck all to do with anybody else the vaccine status of another person. People that choose not to have the vaccine are not constantly carrying the virus around - if ever. Nearly two years in I still havn't had the virus - along with the other 50 MILLION people in the U.K . Nearly two years in and people are now starting to band the phrase The unvaccinated round like they have leprosy. Its a virus that people have a survival rate of 98% if you are under 80!

I feel this site is full of Government bots pushing this phrase and aggressive coercion or just complete curtain twitching w**kers.

This 👏

I changed to a different dental hygentist when I found out that mine wasn't vaccinated at all.

She was self employed but worked at my regular dentist's surgery.

Going to the dentist is one of the most risky things you can do. The patient can't wear a mask and the worker is very close to them.

It's fine if you don't want to be vaccinated (I don't believe in forcing people) but I can also choose not to go to an unvaccinated person nor to a practice that employs a non-vaccinated person.

I pay a lot of money for these services so I get to choose too.

I don't believe that without a vaccine society would now have collapsed and millions would be dead. We'd have worked out a way to live with it

Yeah, 'cause that is what happened in the case of the Spanish Flu. It really didn't kill millions of people including millions of young, fit people. And there were no economic after effects.

And what about the Black Death? That didn't reduce the population by a sizeable amount to the extent it took about 200 years for the population to reach prepandemic levels.

Yeah, I bet most people who lived through those pandemics would not have been overjoyed to have access to a vaccine. They would have much preferred to just live with it.

The vast majority of the rest of us, the relatively young, fit and healthy would probably be just fine, after a bit of minor illness.

Sure coronavirus itself may have had little impact on these populations (putting long COVID aside), but this is ignoring all the preventable deaths that would have been caused by non-COVID emergencies not being able to access timely treatment or attention, due to saturation of hospitlis with COVID cases.

I don't believe that without a vaccine society would now have collapsed and millions would be dead. We'd have worked out a way to live with it just as mankind has with every disease for generations

Until vaccines, millions DID die young.

Old cemeteries are full of tombstones to children who died of now-preventable childhood diseases.

The 1918-1919 flu pandemic killed an estimated 50 million people. More than the First World War.

However I fucking hate the way people who have not opted to have it are now being treated. The unvaccinated ... fuck me why not just start asking people to wear arm bands so that people can stand away from them in shops. It's disgusting that the terminology is being used to create a divide in communities and the unvaccinated are a bunch of dirty diseased people.

There's a lot of hyperbole here @MauraandLaura

Including the coronavirus vaccine in those required for healthcare staff is not equivalent to saying they are "bunch of dirty diseased people"

yanbu. its taking away people's rights

You mention you are only on just above minimum wage. Can you find another job not requiring the vaccine?
Do that job until you feel comfortable in the level of scientific knowledge in the Covid vaccine & any possible side effects.
At this point, get vaccinated & return to dentistry.
You're only 22 - you have time on your side to take some time out.