Thoughts on the non-vaccinated!

[UnluckyMe]

Why have people been so critical of those who have chosen not to be vaccinated against covid 19?

I've read all sorts of comments about those, like me, who chose not to be vaccinated calling us selfish, uneducated and so on. There seems to be a massive lack of respect for what others choose to do with their body and I'm just curious as go why people feel the need to make comments about it. There are obviously many who don't and I do acknowledge that, my post is more directed to thoughts on why the other side do (feels very playground bully like to me).

The way I see it is everyone has a choice - respect that choice and move on with life rather than throwing insults at one another or dwell on something out of your own control.

I'd also like to confirm i do not own tin foil hat, expect the end of days soon or believe everyone will drop dead in 6 months / will transform into magneto from X-Men (all those coins sticking to people's arms!)

I have followed the rules down to a tee but have just chosen not to be vaccinated at present. Maybe I will change my mind, maybe I won't 🤷‍♀️ who knows.

I am genuinely curious - I read on another post "all vulnerable and sensible people have had the jab" as a comment which riled me a bit too! I like to think I'm pretty sensible but clearly this Mumsnetter thinks otherwise 😆😆

Vaccines are a strong way out of this mess and vaccinated people are less likely to spread it. With covid, all our actions affect each other. However, I also wouldn't be surprised if more side effects come to light and don't blame people at all who don't want to vaccinate yet. I'm double vaccinated btw as it was the right choice for me. Mask wearing, testing etc seems like a small thing to protect others and slow down cases, but they don't have a risk for me. If I didn't feel safe taking the vaccine, I wouldn't do it to protect others, it was done for me and my family. Similarly I wouldn't expect someone to take a vaccine. Things often get rather polarised on mumsnet - in the real world, people are more accepting!

At least you've gone from smug and condescending to outright rude, which at least is a bit more honest.

Damn! I hoped I'd been rude about anti vaxxers from the outset 🤣

Quick question then - anyone with a bit more knowledge in a certain field or aspect of life - you simply believe whatever it is they tell you without ever thinking twice? Because that's certainly what you seem to be saying.

How do you reach that conclusion?

I'm not trying to prove anyone right or wrong here. I'm double vaccinated myself, having looked fairly closely into it and weighed all of the various factors, info and opinions up. I simply responded to your smug 'only stupid people question the experts' line to say that, in itself, unquestioning acceptance is almost as dangerous and idiotic as unquestioning denial.

From where do you draw the conclusion that I'm a dangerous idiot? I'm not saying that there aren't some dangerous idiots on this thread mind you ...

You seem to wear not thinking for yourself as some kind of badge of pride - it's bizarre

Is it bizarre to not agree with non scientists when they tell me that, due to their clever 'research' they now know more than actual scientists? I have to disagree with you again there, sorry, but do crack on with your unevidenced assertions if it helps you feel special 😁

I'm very much "do what you want" but I'm struggling this week
CEV, and immunocompromised and my body doesn't act like other peoples (I kill off my own blood cells!) so I have no idea if I have antibodies
I'm terrified of everything just opening up, no masks etc and being expected to just go back to normal. I'm ok in the supermarket as I go at quiet times, wear a decent mask etc. I guess just carry on with the mask and avoid people still

Mumsnet is full of headless chickens OP, real life isn't anything like what it seems on here. Most people are quite grown up about the concept of having and making choices for ourselves but there's always a few vocal ranters. Don't concern yourself with the name calling it usually comes from people who aren't capable of seeing more than one perspective. Best to keep your expectations low on mumsnet.

@NotMyCat

I'm very much "do what you want" but I'm struggling this week CEV, and immunocompromised and my body doesn't act like other peoples (I kill off my own blood cells!) so I have no idea if I have antibodies I'm terrified of everything just opening up, no masks etc and being expected to just go back to normal. I'm ok in the supermarket as I go at quiet times, wear a decent mask etc. I guess just carry on with the mask and avoid people still

I am sorry to hear about your health problems and I very much hope you do have antibodies

I cannot understand anyone who would simply write off the lives of those who are vulnerable and expect them to stay indoors for the rest of their lives. So incredibly cruel and ableist as I said upthread. What sort of society is it where we don't care about those more vulnerable (in any way, not just healthwise) than ourselves? It's not a society I want to live in 😥

Not RTFT but my thoughts are I respect your decision not to get vaccinated just like I'd hope people would respect my decision to be vaccinated. I dont think any more or any less of anyone for whatever decision they've made it's none of my business.
Where I really lose respect for people is when they try and force their views and opinions on others. Be mature enough to accept other people's views and get on with your life. Simple.

Drinking, smoking and violent crime are not fat-tailed, aka superspreading, incidents. Unlike covid. The number of secondary cases that can be generated by one infected individual renders comparisons to thinks like car accidents completely pointless
Not superspreading as such, ties in with the 'actions have consequences ' line frequently trotted out on here, so I see why people compare it.

What do people think happens everytime they snort that Colombian powder up their noses for example? Or smoke that weed. They don't see themselves as a drug addicts, because they do it as and when - but thinking their choice to do drugs has no negative impact is ridiculous. Every choice has a consequence, and we don't shun parts of society for it.

How many people see or read the news, about the latest stabbing/death and stop partaking in illegal drugs for the greater good? How many people actually think about those who suffer and die, all because they want to do a line at a party? Or smoke that weed as a means to relax?

@PrettyVacancy I mean I don't expect other people to stay in for me but I would prefer at the shops for people to keep their distance still (I'll wear a mask) and that's what's making me nervous. I already shielded at home alone for nearly a year

What I get annoyed about is when people who have chosen not to have the vaccine have this narrative that they are the ones who have done their research and the rest of us are all just sheep, blindly following... Then when I dispute that, they counter that everyone's allowed their own opinions and I need to respect theirs!

Damn! I hoped I'd been rude about anti vaxxers from the outset 🤣

Yes, double-vaccinated me, I'm an 'anti-vaxxer'

How do you reach that conclusion?

Um, from what you've been writing about 'trusting the experts'. Or is it only some experts about certain things and they have to be a certain level of expert, in which case how do you decide which experts, what level they are and about which things? Surely experts are experts?

From where do you draw the conclusion that I'm a dangerous idiot?

I said unquestioning acceptance is dangerous and idiotic. But in the first part of your post you seemed to be saying you don't unquestioningly accept everything you're told (even though that's exactly what you said we should all do in a previous post). The circles you're going round in are making me dizzy - please stop.

Is it bizarre to not agree with non scientists when they tell me that, due to their clever 'research' they now know more than actual scientists?

Do you know what a strawman is? Because posing your own question, that's totally different to the one you were asked, and then answering it, is the very definition.

Please point to my 'unevidenced assertions' - I'll wait here patiently.

You appear not to have any personal experience with Covid. I have. One of my closest friends caught it at work (hospital) led her to her dad dying, she died and her husband very ill. Covid is no joke, it's not something to ignore and it's not just a cold (yet). Vaccines only work if over 95% of the population takes them as it leads to no where for the disease to go. So those who don't vaccinate impact the vulnerable, impact those who have been responsible and vaccinated. I also work with lots of people and they aren't vaccinated, vaccination isn't a cure it just lowers the risk of death, having underlying illnesses myself I feel better protected with it but still worry I could catch it or give it to someone else.

I now have a new concern as the tide is turning and most are vaccinated, the ones who aren't are going to be left vulnerable as the disease will always target the easiest people to attack. This includes children. We do have to learn to live with this virus. But we can only tackle like all other diseases with science, not a wing and a prayer and a deluded notion that it's just the flu.

@Notthemessiah

Damn! I hoped I'd been rude about anti vaxxers from the outset 🤣

Yes, double-vaccinated me, I'm an 'anti-vaxxer'

How do you reach that conclusion?

Um, from what you've been writing about 'trusting the experts'. Or is it only some experts about certain things and they have to be a certain level of expert, in which case how do you decide which experts, what level they are and about which things? Surely experts are experts?

From where do you draw the conclusion that I'm a dangerous idiot?

I said unquestioning acceptance is dangerous and idiotic. But in the first part of your post you seemed to be saying you don't unquestioningly accept everything you're told (even though that's exactly what you said we should all do in a previous post). The circles you're going round in are making me dizzy - please stop.

Is it bizarre to not agree with non scientists when they tell me that, due to their clever 'research' they now know more than actual scientists?

Do you know what a strawman is? Because posing your own question, that's totally different to the one you were asked, and then answering it, is the very definition.

Please point to my 'unevidenced assertions' - I'll wait here patiently.

The post was created by an anti vaxxer so that's who I was debating with initially, not you. You joined in later.

If you were a brain surgeon would you ask a completely unqualified member of the public to come into the operating theatre to advise you in case you went wrong? If not, why? If we don't trust those who have received training to to their job we surely have to imagine that we have got more knowledge than them? It's no different from trusting a tube train driver to get you to your destination without needing your input isn't it? Or a pilot? Or any one of hundreds of experts in their field in whom we place our trust every day of our lives.

Can you point me to the place where I said that I either do or don't accept everything I am told unquestioningly? Also, how rude of you to tell me to shut up. Same to you. Just shut your cake hole!

You haven't understood what a straw man argument is. You think you have but, really, you haven't. You obviously understand (albeit unconsciously) what an ad hominen attack is though 🤣

Its like CEV children do not count anymore. They are still un-vaccinated, and no clear plans to change that anytime soon in the UK. Dropping social distancing and masks feels like they are being not considered at all. Am I supposed to keep isolating my CEV child for another, six months, a year? How long? So yes, people that chose not to vaccinate (not including those that genuinely cannot) are selfish. And do not tell me "oh covid will just be like a cold" for them, when a simple adenovirus can put them in hospital.

@Tallpaulwho

Its like CEV children do not count anymore. They are still un-vaccinated, and no clear plans to change that anytime soon in the UK. Dropping social distancing and masks feels like they are being not considered at all. Am I supposed to keep isolating my CEV child for another, six months, a year? How long? So yes, people that chose not to vaccinate (not including those that genuinely cannot) are selfish. And do not tell me "oh covid will just be like a cold" for them, when a simple adenovirus can put them in hospital.

I really feel for you and your child but, sadly, we live in an entitled society as the amount of 'I'm alright Jacks and Jills' on this thread are proving over and over.

I'm vaccinated but I do think it's personal choice and would be uncomfortable with people being forced to have the vaccine if they didn't want it.
Can I ask though OP, without a huge chunk of the population choosing to be vaccinated how do you think we would have got out of this?

@Tallpaulwho

Its like CEV children do not count anymore. They are still un-vaccinated, and no clear plans to change that anytime soon in the UK. Dropping social distancing and masks feels like they are being not considered at all. Am I supposed to keep isolating my CEV child for another, six months, a year? How long? So yes, people that chose not to vaccinate (not including those that genuinely cannot) are selfish. And do not tell me "oh covid will just be like a cold" for them, when a simple adenovirus can put them in hospital.

I completely agree and this is why I so strongly believe everyone who can have it should.

Far too many people think they know better than specialists and scientists across the world and they don't. They're selfish, arrogant arseholes.

Vaccines only work if over 95% of the population takes them as it leads to no where for the disease to go. So those who don't vaccinate impact the vulnerable, impact those who have been responsible and vaccinated

A quick Google tells me about 18% of the UK population are aged 0-14 - circa 12 million.

So even if 100% of UK 'adults' (14 +) were fully vaccinated - 54 million people - we'd need to vaccinate over 70% of all 0-14s to make the overall population 95% vaccinated.

Does anyone really think that likely?

Obviously I'm just an anecdotal example of one but I don't know anyone in real life - even those strongly pro vaccine for adults - who are willing to vaccinate their young dc. Many are quite vehemently against it. Nor does what I've read online suggest that people generally are going to be that open to it.

I don't think 95% will be remotely possibly given the number of people who, I suspect, will be less willing to vaccinate children.

@housecoat1968

I'm vaccinated but I do think it's personal choice and would be uncomfortable with people being forced to have the vaccine if they didn't want it. Can I ask though OP, without a huge chunk of the population choosing to be vaccinated how do you think we would have got out of this?

None of those justifying their right to refuse the vaccine seem prepared to answer that question.

@housecoat1968

I'm vaccinated but I do think it's personal choice and would be uncomfortable with people being forced to have the vaccine if they didn't want it. Can I ask though OP, without a huge chunk of the population choosing to be vaccinated how do you think we would have got out of this?

Exactly this. I don’t agree with people being forced to have a vaccine but equally I don’t agree with people living under restrictions because too few people are vaccinated for us to keep covid under control.

What do those who refuse to get vaccinated want to happen if the ICUs are overwhelmed because of unvaccinated patients? Other people not be able to access treatment? The rest of us live under restrictions to keep rates down?

Thankfully enough people seem to have been willing to have the vaccination that this won’t happen, but I’m not sure what their plan was if everyone had refused the vaccine

I agree ilovesooty, because I haven't seen any answers at all about how we are going to potentially escape the clutches of this global pandemic without vaccines. All the posters on this thread are telling us that the experts in the field know nothing, so one can only assume that they, themselves, have the answers. How strangely reticent they are to tell the rest of us what those answers are. If I had the answer I'd be shouting it from the rooftops. Maybe they are just an especially modest bunch?

Exactly. We’d be in a right mess if everyone was as “intelligent” as those who have refused the vaccine purport to be.

Ds went for his vaccine last week and he said it was really moving to see hundreds of young people queuing up.

I don’t agree with compulsory vaccination, but refusing is nothing to be proud of. Refuses should keep their heads down and be bloody grateful that so many people have stepped up to the plate.

I've chosen not to be vaccinated - primarily because I have concerns over the new mRNA technology.

Why would that translate into me having all the answers about how we 'beat' the pandemic?

It's a question with no possible answer.

As you seem determined to argue against whatever you want to argue against, rather than what I'm actually saying, I'll leave you to shout at yourself, but with one last example of where you've miscontrued exactly what I've said (deliberately I would guess - if it's accidentally then you probably are just better off blindly doing what the experts tell you to do).

I asked you to stop going round in circles as you were making me dizzy (in reference to your arguments). I didn't tell you to shut up. Sigh.

That was for PrettyVacancy

@Notthemessiah

That was for PrettyVacancy

Sadly, PrettyVacancy is refusing to listen to anything you say because, using her phenomenal intellect 🤣, she’s done her research and decided you’re talking tripe! Best love, Pretty 😍