Thoughts on the non-vaccinated!

[UnluckyMe]

Why have people been so critical of those who have chosen not to be vaccinated against covid 19?

I've read all sorts of comments about those, like me, who chose not to be vaccinated calling us selfish, uneducated and so on. There seems to be a massive lack of respect for what others choose to do with their body and I'm just curious as go why people feel the need to make comments about it. There are obviously many who don't and I do acknowledge that, my post is more directed to thoughts on why the other side do (feels very playground bully like to me).

The way I see it is everyone has a choice - respect that choice and move on with life rather than throwing insults at one another or dwell on something out of your own control.

I'd also like to confirm i do not own tin foil hat, expect the end of days soon or believe everyone will drop dead in 6 months / will transform into magneto from X-Men (all those coins sticking to people's arms!)

I have followed the rules down to a tee but have just chosen not to be vaccinated at present. Maybe I will change my mind, maybe I won't 🤷‍♀️ who knows.

I am genuinely curious - I read on another post "all vulnerable and sensible people have had the jab" as a comment which riled me a bit too! I like to think I'm pretty sensible but clearly this Mumsnetter thinks otherwise 😆😆

Drinking, smoking and violent crime are not fat-tailed, aka superspreading, incidents. Unlike covid

WOW What a very very telling post. Both drinking and violent crime can cause death. People get killed by drunk drivers and violent criminals every fucking day. But you cant catch being mown down or being murdered off their victims so thats ok right? I thought we were supposed to be concerned about ppl not dying...........oh wait you only meant not dying from Covid.

You have just minimized two major problems in this country. Drinking and violent crime to try and win an argument. Well
A. it doesnt work and
B. Its not a good look.

@Wimpund21

I've chosen not to be vaccinated - primarily because I have concerns over the new mRNA technology.

Why would that translate into me having all the answers about how we 'beat' the pandemic?

It's a question with no possible answer.

I thought you said earlier you were worried vaccines would lead to a huge outbreak of a side effect more serious than covid itself that would overwhelm the NHS and kill us all? Why the change? Or do you believe the spike protein in MRNA vaccines is harbouring this insidious ‘cancer mixed with covid mixed with 3 broken legs ‘currently undiscovered but biding it’s time waiting until everyone’s had the vaccine disease? Surely then you could just get AZ or J&J?

@MercyBooth

Drinking, smoking and violent crime are not fat-tailed, aka superspreading, incidents. Unlike covid

WOW What a very very telling post. Both drinking and violent crime can cause death. People get killed by drunk drivers and violent criminals every fucking day. But you cant catch being mown down or being murdered off their victims so thats ok right? I thought we were supposed to be concerned about ppl not dying...........oh wait you only meant not dying from Covid.

You have just minimized two major problems in this country. Drinking and violent crime to try and win an argument. Well
A. it doesnt work and
B. Its not a good look.

She said they weren’t fat tailed @MercyBooth not that they didn’t kill people

I thought you said earlier you were worried vaccines would lead to a huge outbreak of a side effect more serious than covid itself that would overwhelm the NHS and kill us all? Why the change?

No change in my opinion...i think you must be thinking of a different poster.

Either that or you're taken one small part of one of my previous posts, out of context, then chaged and exaggerated it to try to make me look foolish.

But no. I didn't say that.

@Wimpund21

I've chosen not to be vaccinated - primarily because I have concerns over the new mRNA technology.

Why would that translate into me having all the answers about how we 'beat' the pandemic?

It's a question with no possible answer.

I think you have to appreciate the consequence of you saying you don’t want the vaccine but have no alternative route out of the pandemic is that those who refuse the vaccine risk prolonging the pandemic for us all. That’s why people have a problem with your choice - because it affects all of us

@PrettyVacancy

I agree ilovesooty, because I haven't seen any answers at all about how we are going to potentially escape the clutches of this global pandemic without vaccines. All the posters on this thread are telling us that the experts in the field know nothing, so one can only assume that they, themselves, have the answers. How strangely reticent they are to tell the rest of us what those answers are. If I had the answer I'd be shouting it from the rooftops. Maybe they are just an especially modest bunch?

I think you’re maybe making the mistake that people not wanting to have the vaccine themselves think that it shouldn’t be available to anyone. That’s not usually the case. Many people see the need for vaccines to reduce the risk of serious illness in older/cv people. The uptake of vaccines in those groups is very high because there is strong, personal benefit to having it. The issue is, that as you move out of those top 9 groups, there is much lower personal benefit. People are not at high risk of complications from the virus. People may be happy with the low risk that the virus poses to them and not want to take a vaccine that they don’t feel that they need. Pushing the idea that we need to protect the small percentage of people who can’t be vaccinated when those people have always been at risk from other diseases that we don’t vaccinate the population against seems a bit odd.

No @bumbleymummy , it’s about a critical mass of people needing to take the vaccine in order for us to cope with the number of hospitalisations generated by high levels of infection (levels which are also exacerbated by people not taking the vaccine).

those who refuse the vaccine risk prolonging the pandemic for us all

The largest proportion of unvaccinated spreaders are (and probably will continue to be) children.

Even 100% vaccination in adults won't 'end' the pandemic. Kids will continue to spread it, the virus will continue to mutate. Until everyone vaccinates their kids, down to preschool age.

This is one of the things I struggle with - the constant bombardment of we need to to xyz to end the pandemic, to return to normality, to fix everything.

If a key aim of vaccination is to prevent mutations, there's surely a glaring problem which seems to be being ignored by the Government, media and many people - the fact that many parents are likely to reject vaccinating their healthy toddlers for whom the risk of vaccine is likely greater than the risk of the virus.

No one is talking about this aspect.

@SlipperyDippery

No *@bumbleymummy* , it’s about a critical mass of people needing to take the vaccine in order for us to cope with the number of hospitalisations generated by high levels of infection (levels which are also exacerbated by people not taking the vaccine).

That ‘critical mass’ were the top 9 groups that the JCVI calculated were at highest risk of hospitalisation and death. A high level of infection among people who are low risk will not cause a high level of hospitalisations.

@Wimpund21

Vaccines only work if over 95% of the population takes them as it leads to no where for the disease to go. So those who don't vaccinate impact the vulnerable, impact those who have been responsible and vaccinated

A quick Google tells me about 18% of the UK population are aged 0-14 - circa 12 million.

So even if 100% of UK 'adults' (14 +) were fully vaccinated - 54 million people - we'd need to vaccinate over 70% of all 0-14s to make the overall population 95% vaccinated.

Does anyone really think that likely?

Obviously I'm just an anecdotal example of one but I don't know anyone in real life - even those strongly pro vaccine for adults - who are willing to vaccinate their young dc. Many are quite vehemently against it. Nor does what I've read online suggest that people generally are going to be that open to it.

I don't think 95% will be remotely possibly given the number of people who, I suspect, will be less willing to vaccinate children.

The only way it will ever get to over 95% is if it becomes one of the childhood vaccinations given. That will likely be decades away unfortunately. So it's a case of living with the disease and safety precautions.

That ‘critical mass’ were the top 9 groups that the JCVI calculated were at highest risk of hospitalisation and death. A high level of infection among people who are low risk will not cause a high level of hospitalisations

And a significant number of such people have refused the vaccine (though thankfully the minority). Do they have the right to refuse?

Given not all the vulnerable have agreed to have the vaccine, even in those that have the vaccines aren’t 100% effective, high levels of infection means higher numbers of the vaccinated being hospitalised, and a small percentage of the non-vulnerable are unlucky and need hospitalisation, small percentages of big numbers = lots of people, do you really think people not taking the vaccine has no effect on anyone else?

Let me put it another way. If people’s decision to refuse the vaccination did lead to the NHS being overwhelmed, would you agree people would have the right to be pissed off at that choice?

If a key aim of vaccination is to prevent mutations, there's surely a glaring problem which seems to be being ignored by the Government, media and many people - the fact that many parents are likely to reject vaccinating their healthy toddlers for whom the risk of vaccine is likely greater than the risk of the virus

I don’t think preventing mutations is really the point (we will end up importing them anyway). It’s to keep levels of infections and more importantly hospitalisation down.

This is one of the things I struggle with - the constant bombardment of we need to to xyz to end the pandemic

We need enough people to be vaccinated that the NHS can cope with the number of people being seriously ill without restrictions being placed on the public. The more people that have the vaccine the better. It couldn’t actually be simpler.

@Wimpund21

Putting yourself before others is the definition of selfish so yes, I think you’re selfish

Selfish is on almost every other post. It's just silly, emotional mud-slinging that's used to insult people and attempt to guilt them into action. However, it's pretty meaningless.

Other than some very rare exceptions, EVERY person is selfish by default. It's natural, it's survival instinct, protecting your own etc. You put you and your family first.

I could call you selfish for not giving blood. Not putting yourself on the bone marrow list. Not offering yourself up as a live kidney donor to some poor sick 5 year old dying of kidney cancer. Not donating half your income to a third world family - what, you think you need Netflix and takeaways more than an Ethiopian family need water?

How. Fucking. Selfish.

Meaningless words.

I'm a decent enough person...i volunteer, I'm kind, I donate, I help my neighbours, I help my colleagues. To a point.

However, when push comes to shove, despite the number of things I do for my community - I will put myself and my family before any other person on this Earth. As would you. To pretend otherwise is silly...and probably a downright lie if you pretend to.

For me, I feel that having the vaccine would be an unnecessary risk to me and my family as I have serious concerns over the safety, efficacy and need (for me) of the current vaccines. Concerns that I'm not willing to ignore for you, anyone else, or their granny.

well said , the amount of sheer judgement on this thread is unreal

Is anyone on this thread who has declined the vaccine willing to acknowledge that they only have the luxury of being able to make that decision and still benefit, because of people who have taken a risk and got the vaccine?

I find this with anti-vaxxers when it comes to their kids as well. I have literally never heard an anti-vaxxer acknowledge that their children are only safe from fatal diseases because of the herd immunity created by other parents putting their children 'at risk' by getting them vaccinated.

Vaccines only work if over 95% of the population takes them as it leads to no where for the disease to go.

Vaccines work by reducing the risk of serious illness in the person that has been vaccinated. It’s not like they only start offering protection when a certain percentage has been vaccinated.

I believe that no one should be forced to have a vaccine of any sort. Just don't expect a pat on the back for 'following your gut' from people who are improving your life by actually getting the vaccine.

@SlipperyDippery

That ‘critical mass’ were the top 9 groups that the JCVI calculated were at highest risk of hospitalisation and death. A high level of infection among people who are low risk will not cause a high level of hospitalisations

And a significant number of such people have refused the vaccine (though thankfully the minority). Do they have the right to refuse?

Given not all the vulnerable have agreed to have the vaccine, even in those that have the vaccines aren’t 100% effective, high levels of infection means higher numbers of the vaccinated being hospitalised, and a small percentage of the non-vulnerable are unlucky and need hospitalisation, small percentages of big numbers = lots of people, do you really think people not taking the vaccine has no effect on anyone else?

Let me put it another way. If people’s decision to refuse the vaccination did lead to the NHS being overwhelmed, would you agree people would have the right to be pissed off at that choice?

Take up in those groups is over 90% iirc. Of course they gave the right to refuse if they don’t want it. The vaccine is there for their added protection if they feel they need it. We don’t go around bashing vulnerable people for not taking their flu vaccine every year even though they might end up in hospital.

If the vaccinated are still being hospitalised in large numbers then the vaccines aren’t really doing a great job. You’re really talking about small percentages of relatively small numbers. The younger, less vulnerable groups are still unlikely to end up in hospital.

@Tinysalmonswimminginastream I'm willing to admit that I am one of those people who have declined the vaccine and benefit from those around me being fully vaccinated - it's not something that I'm ashamed or embarrassed to admit and is something I am really grateful for. I think that anyone who is able to get the vaccine absolutely should.
I am currently high risk pregnancy and even getting a mild temperature as a side effect could be potentially dangerous to me - hence why I have declined - I will however be getting the vaccine post pregnancy, so not an antivaxxer as such.

Is anyone on this thread who has declined the vaccine willing to acknowledge that they only have the luxury of being able to make that decision and still benefit, because of people who have taken a risk and got the vaccine?*

No. I’m happy to take my chances with covid, regardless of how many people have been vaccinated. Its risk to me is far lower than many things I do on a daily basis without even thinking about them.

Hi op,
I haven't rtft, but just wanted to add that Stephanie Davis in the news today is one of the reasons why I get myself vaccinated and find it necessary for others to get vaccinated.
It's important we protect others who can't get vaccinated for whatever reason. I got my 1st vaccine last week (biontech). I was nervous what with all the bad press but I read up on it the day before, properly, not scare-mongering news. I had zero side effects which tends to be the case with the majority of people. I guess I just don't understand why people wouldn't get vaccinated?

Watching the press conference now and they’re talking about maybe needing more restrictions in the winter because of the pressures the NHS faces. If more people get vaccinated, the NHS will face less pressure and we will all live under fewer restrictions.

No one is forcing anyone to get a vaccine but stop pretending there are no consequences for other people.

The nhs is under pressure every winter. Maybe they should invest money into trying to sort out staffing levels etc rather than making us all live with restrictions to bail it out

@bumbleymummy

The nhs is under pressure every winter. Maybe they should invest money into trying to sort out staffing levels etc rather than making us all live with restrictions to bail it out

Yeah I agree. But they won’t. It will be restrictions, as you well know when you choose not to get vaccinated.

I find this with anti-vaxxers when it comes to their kids as well. I have literally never heard an anti-vaxxer acknowledge that their children are only safe from fatal diseases because of the herd immunity

That's the problem with trying to pigeon hole people as 'anti vaxxers' though. It's often not the case.

I'm very pro-vaccine generally. I have 3 dc who've received all of their standard immunisations.

None of us will be getting the CV jab for the foeseeable however as I have specific concerns about this vaccine.

I'm terms of admitting to benefitting because others have vaccinated themselves...sure I guess. If restrictions are being eased due to % vaccinated then obviously that's a reward I'm reaping that I didn't contribute to. However my decision to decline this jab hasn't been influenced by how many people accepted or declined it.

@TheGoogleMum

It's because we need herd immunity, people refusing the vaccine are being selfish

Absolutely this.

People who have refused the vaccine ( not the tiny minority who have medical advice to avoid it) are taking a personal and selfish decision to avoid a miniscule risk because they have a more flawed understanding of risk than normal. The vast majority of people in this country however ) thank goodness) have a better understanding of risk and are taking a better decision both for themselves and also for the greater good. This applies even to teen-agers and young people when Covid infections are high as they are at the moment.

Those who refuse the vaccine then rationalise this decision not to take the vaccine any way they can but this dues not negate the fact that their decision is the wrong one. One that they can argue is their right to take which it absolutely is but it doesn't make it the right decision. It is a mistake and all the postmodern shite spouted about personal choice doesn't make it the right decision.