Thoughts on the non-vaccinated!

[UnluckyMe]

Why have people been so critical of those who have chosen not to be vaccinated against covid 19?

I've read all sorts of comments about those, like me, who chose not to be vaccinated calling us selfish, uneducated and so on. There seems to be a massive lack of respect for what others choose to do with their body and I'm just curious as go why people feel the need to make comments about it. There are obviously many who don't and I do acknowledge that, my post is more directed to thoughts on why the other side do (feels very playground bully like to me).

The way I see it is everyone has a choice - respect that choice and move on with life rather than throwing insults at one another or dwell on something out of your own control.

I'd also like to confirm i do not own tin foil hat, expect the end of days soon or believe everyone will drop dead in 6 months / will transform into magneto from X-Men (all those coins sticking to people's arms!)

I have followed the rules down to a tee but have just chosen not to be vaccinated at present. Maybe I will change my mind, maybe I won't 🤷‍♀️ who knows.

I am genuinely curious - I read on another post "all vulnerable and sensible people have had the jab" as a comment which riled me a bit too! I like to think I'm pretty sensible but clearly this Mumsnetter thinks otherwise 😆😆

@Wimpund21

the vaccine was never designed to make covid go away entirely because that just won’t happen. People seem to misunderstand this

I agree with this - but imo it's a misunderstanding that's encouraged by the Government.

Theyre not laying out any long term plans or estimates or possibilities. They're not telling people that to remain 'vaccinated' they'll need to commit to a lifetime of annual boosters - and if not, in a year or two these people will be in nearly the same position, protection wise, as someone who's had none at all.

I think there are probably a huge amount of people who are blissfully unaware of what will be required of them for decades to come to maintain their 'vaccinated' status.

Now I'm not trying to be rude but those who are good at science do GCSEs, A levels, degrees etc in biology, chemistry, physics and so on. The academically less able are guided towards a lower qualification in 'general science'. This does not give me any confidence whatsoever in your understanding of a complex subject such as vaccinations. I mean, come on, you'd surely not volunteer to take out a burst appendix without any medical training would you? So why do you think you are such an expert on vaccines? Can you please explain?

I think you are selfish as you clearly perceive some risk in getting the vaccine so you’re not getting it @UnluckyMe. But you are also likely benefiting from the reopening of society and life getting back to normal - which is only happening because others got vaccinated. I doubt many people are 100% confident on vaccines. But the experts say it’s safe and being vaccinated will get normal life back so I got mine. You’re selfish to say oh you get yours and take that risk. I won’t but I’ll still head out to restaurants and enjoy normal life as a result of you being vaccinated. If everyone had your attitude we would still be in total lockdown

Also, you seem to think that those of us who believe in herd immunity (and you'll have to explain in simple terms why you don't believe in it if I am to have any confidence in your dismissal of it) have been conned by the government. You appear to be saying that only anti vaxxers like yourself are intelligent enough not to fall for the government's con tricks.

Do you think it is only the UK government who is conning its citizens or is this actually a global phenomenon? Has your extensive research watching conspiracy theorists on YouTube led you to believe that only one single government is scamming their populace? If you do a few more hours 'research' you'll find that lots of governments are encouraging vaccination take up. See you in a few hours 😉

@Wimpund21 by choosing not to be vaccinated would you accept the consequences of being restricted from workplace, school, travel, etc? I'm Australian and these types of restrictions are starting (frontline and age care workers), and further explored for other industries. People will have the right to choose not to vaccinate but they will not be given the right to place others at risk.

You speak to placing your family first, but people who choose to vaccinate probably feel the same way. Why then, is it acceptable for you to risk others?

But again, I ask you what is the alternative? You say you’ve done lots of research, what is that suggesting we do instead?

There's no right or wrong answer...certainly no easy answer.

Personally I feel it shortsighted to use a new type of vaccine on so many in one hit. If...IF it goes tits up and we find some horrid autoimmune response to the MRNA tech is triggered by xyz (a different virus. A cancer. Passage of time, the aging process itself...who knows)...then the virus itself will be the least of anyones problems. The NHS will be overwhelmed far more than it has been.

I think it would have been safer to completely isolate the ECV. Keep life as it was and allow the virus to spread in the rest. Whilst pumping the billions of ££ into developing vaccines using the live/whole virus, which is tried and tested technology and already proven safe in the long term.

But that approach itself would have been a gamble and full of ethical quandries for the ECV locked inside for months/years.

I don’t really understand the abuse of people who’ve chosen not to have it. Or branding them all as ‘anti-vaxxers’.

I haven’t had the vaccine because I’m pregnant (first trimester). I know all the arguments in favour of having it while pregnant but I’m not comfortable with it. I will have it when I’m no longer pregnant. I’m in no way an anti-vaxxer. My child has had all the routine vaccinations, as have I. I don’t understand why I deserve abuse for opting to delay it for 6-7 months.

Personally I feel it shortsighted to use a new type of vaccine on so many in one hit. If...IF it goes tits up and we find some horrid autoimmune response to the MRNA tech is triggered by xyz (a different virus. A cancer. Passage of time, the aging process itself...who knows)...then the virus itself will be the least of anyones problems. The NHS will be overwhelmed far more than it has been.

Conspiracy theory alert! Do not engage!

@Wimpund21

But again, I ask you what is the alternative? You say you’ve done lots of research, what is that suggesting we do instead?

There's no right or wrong answer...certainly no easy answer.

Personally I feel it shortsighted to use a new type of vaccine on so many in one hit. If...IF it goes tits up and we find some horrid autoimmune response to the MRNA tech is triggered by xyz (a different virus. A cancer. Passage of time, the aging process itself...who knows)...then the virus itself will be the least of anyones problems. The NHS will be overwhelmed far more than it has been.

I think it would have been safer to completely isolate the ECV. Keep life as it was and allow the virus to spread in the rest. Whilst pumping the billions of ££ into developing vaccines using the live/whole virus, which is tried and tested technology and already proven safe in the long term.

But that approach itself would have been a gamble and full of ethical quandries for the ECV locked inside for months/years.

Wow! What an ableist response. You're happy to lock up the vulnerable for what? Decades? The rest of their lives? just so that you can crack on and enjoy your life? I think you've told me all I need to know about you and your selfishness now 😥

@Wimpund21 by choosing not to be vaccinated would you accept the consequences of being restricted from workplace, school, travel, etc?

Yes.

It's not a thought I relish and I don't believe those that decline the vaccine should be restricted - after all, the largest population of 'unvaccinated' is likely to remain our children - but yes, I will live with restrictions for the unvaccinated before I vaccinate at this point.

@Wimpund21 thanks for answering. Yes for me that alternative is just not viable. Like you acknowledge, the permanent isolation of the ECV is in my view ethically not an option. And seeing as the number of non-ECV people who ended up hospitalised and and at best putting extreme pressure on the NHS, and at worst dying, was so high, I think allowing the virus to ‘spread in the rest’ is far to much of a risk. I would not have felt comfortable being thrown out into the world to take my chances with the virus and this would not have been an acceptable option for the majority. You’ve been critical of the government’s narrative around vaccines, but I would have been a heck of a lot more critical if they’d just gone down the route of letting natural selection decide.

This is why I can’t get on board with the choice to remain unvaccinated. The alternative just isn’t good enough.

@PrettyVacancy

I’m not sure how a GCSE in general science has equipped you to access and, more importantly, understand scientific research papers? These papers aren’t normally available to the general public so I’m guessing you have a friend who works in research, specifically this area of research? Are they also an anti vaxxer? Sounds odd 🤔

Would you mind posting links to the research so that the rest of us can read it too? Thanks 😊

See that's just a smug and condescending way of saying that you think they are too stupid to understand the topic and should just let the experts tell them what to do without question.

I've spent many years becoming an expert in my chosen field, but that doesn't mean that I expect everyone to take my word for it when I tell them something or that they can't possibly understand what I'm explaining to them without having spent 30+ years doing my job. I'm not some god-like genius and I don't believe that the people working in medicine are either - they are my contemporaries who chose a different field to work in. I'll certainly pay a lot of attention to what they have to say, but I'm not going to just blindly accept it without thinking or doing a bit of reading around the subject myself.

Maybe you recognise that you aren't bright enough to do the same though, which is fine. Everyone should know their limitations 😊

@Wimpund21 I completely disagree with every point you've raised against vaccination, but you are one of the first who has said they would accept restrictions but making this choice - fair play.

Wow! What an ableist response. You're happy to lock up the vulnerable for what? Decades? The rest of their lives? just so that you can crack on and enjoy your life? I think you've told me all I need to know about you and your selfishness now

Happy? What about my post suggested that?

Honestly, no need to froth so much at every word. Reading comprehension and considering other, purely academic, approaches is a skill it would be useful to build on.

Same here OP me and my family not having it… who will be the sensible ones when something bad about the jab comes to light :)
I don’t even know anyone who’s had covid and we are a big family with lots of teens that just do what they want so pretty hard for me to believe that something is there when I’ve not seen it or had it x

@shrodingersbiscuit

You are making the common mistake of assuming that your right to choose/an opinion also infers a right to support of that choice/opinion.

No one has to support your choice to not vaccinate - particularly when it impacts others safety. And particularly when there is categorically no proven scientific reason for people choosing to not vaccinate.

You can make whatever choices you want. You have no right to support of those choices.

Well said.

I have no time whatsoever for anyone who makes that choice. I wouldn't attempt to dissuade them as they have the right to make it, but I have no wish to interact with them or have them in my life.

Ha ha, I love you two who are trying to call me stupid! Have either of you looked in a mirror recently? Just asking ...

The whole point of my posts is that I am NOT a researcher with a specialised knowledge of vaccines and neither, it would seem, are you two. So why do you not trust science and scientists, preferring instead, you own (very) limited knowledge of the subject to override that of people who do understand science? If you can't provide credible evidence that all these scientists are wrong why not?

To put it another way, in case it helps, what evidence do you have that you are right? Surely you have to prove your scientific credentials to expect me or other rational posters to believe your theories? As I said, would you be happy to work as a surgeon without any scientific knowledge? Would you be happy to be treated by a doctor with no scientific knowledge? Perhaps you would on both counts but that is a very reckless way of behaving and really won't go well for you.

@shrodingersbiscuit - but I'm not in front of a panel here where I'm required to justify my stance!

To be frank, I have no intention of wasting my time by 'citing my sources' and posting reams of info on this thread which most will (understandably!) scroll post.

MN is a discussion forum which I enjoy...i don't feel obligated to prove, evidence and index every word.

Besides that...as I suspect you already know, the same research can lead to multiple - or even opposing - findings, depending on the individual conducting it and their own internal prejudices and beliefs.

A huge part of my job is to remain impartial so I'm generally pretty good at it - but similar to a pp, I'm not infallible and nor do I have any delusions of grandeur. My research may lead others to conclude differently - but others are welcome to do their own! This is my opinion only.

It's not a thought I relish and I don't believe those that decline the vaccine should be restricted - after all, the largest population of 'unvaccinated' is likely to remain our children - but yes, I will live with restrictions for the unvaccinated before I vaccinate at this point.

But very conveniently for you, you don't need to worry about this because others have taken a risk so you don't have to, and you are directly benefiting from that in terms of restrictions being lifted etc.

@shazzz1xx

Same here OP me and my family not having it… who will be the sensible ones when something bad about the jab comes to light :) I don’t even know anyone who’s had covid and we are a big family with lots of teens that just do what they want so pretty hard for me to believe that something is there when I’ve not seen it or had it x

You don't belive covid exists?

shazzz1xx

Your post seems to suggest you want something to go wrong with the vaccine. A bit of told you so with your emoji.

Lots of younger people I know (myself included) have had the vaccine because it's scientifically proven to reduce transmission. So despite the virus being low-risk to them, they're protecting other members of society. Like you.

@Popcornriver

shazzz1xx

Your post seems to suggest you want something to go wrong with the vaccine. A bit of told you so with your emoji.

Lots of younger people I know (myself included) have had the vaccine because it's scientifically proven to reduce transmission. So despite the virus being low-risk to them, they're protecting other members of society. Like you.

Her post suggests she's a covid denier. Some people inexplicably still are.

@Popcornriver I'm curious, the only reason you've had the vaccine is because it reduces transmission by up to 50%? The only reason?

@Popcornriver there's a lot of passive aggressive remarks on both sides of the debate though.

One that was particularly distasteful was the 'if it comes to a choice between giving a vaccinated or unvaccinated person the last ventilator, I hope they make the right choice ☺️' or similar, paraphrasing.

Just disgusting and needless. There's no call for wishing death or illness or misery on anyone.