Thoughts on the non-vaccinated!

[UnluckyMe]

Why have people been so critical of those who have chosen not to be vaccinated against covid 19?

I've read all sorts of comments about those, like me, who chose not to be vaccinated calling us selfish, uneducated and so on. There seems to be a massive lack of respect for what others choose to do with their body and I'm just curious as go why people feel the need to make comments about it. There are obviously many who don't and I do acknowledge that, my post is more directed to thoughts on why the other side do (feels very playground bully like to me).

The way I see it is everyone has a choice - respect that choice and move on with life rather than throwing insults at one another or dwell on something out of your own control.

I'd also like to confirm i do not own tin foil hat, expect the end of days soon or believe everyone will drop dead in 6 months / will transform into magneto from X-Men (all those coins sticking to people's arms!)

I have followed the rules down to a tee but have just chosen not to be vaccinated at present. Maybe I will change my mind, maybe I won't 🤷‍♀️ who knows.

I am genuinely curious - I read on another post "all vulnerable and sensible people have had the jab" as a comment which riled me a bit too! I like to think I'm pretty sensible but clearly this Mumsnetter thinks otherwise 😆😆

What makes you believe that though @HarebrightCedarmoon?

When apparently a third of people don't even show symptoms when positive and the majority of the rest usually have mild illness only?

What is it that leads people to believe that everyone unvaccinated is going to be awfully ill with it when all current data points to the opposite being much more likely?

The majority of deaths are now the double vaccinated. Fact. The "third wave" will be the vaccinated.
I am happy for people to get it if they really want it. But how many want it and how many have been coerced by the promise of freedom? Get vaccinated, still social distance, still wear a mask, still isolate.
No thanks

Well said @Ifbutmaybe.

When apparently a third of people don't even show symptoms when positive and the majority of the rest usually have mild illness only?

Why play Russian Roulette when there is something easily available to reduce the risk of getting the more serious version? Even if you don't give a shit about reducing the risk to other people?

@Ifbutmaybe

The majority of deaths are now the double vaccinated. Fact. The "third wave" will be the vaccinated. I am happy for people to get it if they really want it. But how many want it and how many have been coerced by the promise of freedom? Get vaccinated, still social distance, still wear a mask, still isolate. No thanks

Maybe you should read this article, written by actual scientists, explaining why? Little hint: it isn't because the vaccine is ineffective www.theguardian.com/theobserver/commentisfree/2021/jun/27/why-most-people-who-now-die-with-covid-have-been-vaccinated

When I was a kid, I had chickenpox, which is most of the time not a serious illness and there was no vaccination available. Previous a fit and healthy child I ended up in hospital for two weeks on the strongest antibiotics, had surgery twice, very sick indeed and was ill for months afterwards. Just don't count your chickens that you won't be seriously ill from Covid, because you are low risk or usually fit and well.

Why play Russian Roulette when there is something easily available to reduce the risk of getting the more serious version?

Everyone's playing anyway though.
Long term risks of covid - unknown.
Long term risks of vaccine - unknown.

I've weighed up the risks and decided I'm more willing to accept the risk and long term risk of covid at this point.

[quote UnluckyMe]@sunflower095 not sure you'll see this as I can't tag for some reason, but I have to disagree.

Vaccines and medicine go through years of clinical trials and still get rejected years into research. This jab is producing adverse effects in some users. It hasn't gone through the same testing cycles so comparing it to cancer treatment and other vaccinations is not a valid point. You cannot compare something that has been in use for decades and gone through the proper trials to something that was produced in a matter of months.

The entire drive is a mass clinical trial. Data is being gathered as each day goes by with the aim to make it more effective. I'm sure the media portrayed the vaccine as a one off, then it was a booster this year and they are talking about it being a yearly injection like the flu jab. The narrative is constantly changing because they are still working on it![/quote]
But don't you think it's an incredibly ignorant & arrogant stance to take? Medical professionals and scientists have recommended the vaccine to be administered. People with years of education and experience have put this vaccine together. But somehow an average Joe will know better?

The reason why I tend to think negatively of people who won't take the vaccine is because usually they don't think critically or research, they just make up these weird ideas. As the pandemic was a global crisis all the funding & time in the world was dedicated to getting this vaccine ready. Clinical trials take ages because of funding and admin work most of the time.

Birth control has a long list of side effects but most women take it. It just amazes me how there's so much scientific information available but some people chose to remain clueless and are just being stubborn & ignorant. This is not aimed at you specifically OP I just mean overall in the whole covid vaccine debate.

@Ifbutmaybe

The majority of deaths are now the double vaccinated. Fact. The "third wave" will be the vaccinated. I am happy for people to get it if they really want it. But how many want it and how many have been coerced by the promise of freedom? Get vaccinated, still social distance, still wear a mask, still isolate. No thanks

These measures are largely in place because a lot of people are selfish, don't want to get vaccinated or wear a mask, just want to go out and on holidays and don't care about anything but themselves. For these measures to really be effective it needs to be a group effort.

As the pandemic was a global crisis all the funding & time in the world was dedicated to getting this vaccine ready. Clinical trials take ages because of funding and admin work most of the time

Treatments using MRNA technology have undergone a number of trials in the past few years. All of them were refused approval because of problems with efficacy or side effects or both.

It's misleading to imply that this fantastic treatment has lagged behind due to lack of funding historically.

@Wimpund21

Putting yourself before others is the definition of selfish so yes, I think you’re selfish

Selfish is on almost every other post. It's just silly, emotional mud-slinging that's used to insult people and attempt to guilt them into action. However, it's pretty meaningless.

Other than some very rare exceptions, EVERY person is selfish by default. It's natural, it's survival instinct, protecting your own etc. You put you and your family first.

I could call you selfish for not giving blood. Not putting yourself on the bone marrow list. Not offering yourself up as a live kidney donor to some poor sick 5 year old dying of kidney cancer. Not donating half your income to a third world family - what, you think you need Netflix and takeaways more than an Ethiopian family need water?

How. Fucking. Selfish.

Meaningless words.

I'm a decent enough person...i volunteer, I'm kind, I donate, I help my neighbours, I help my colleagues. To a point.

However, when push comes to shove, despite the number of things I do for my community - I will put myself and my family before any other person on this Earth. As would you. To pretend otherwise is silly...and probably a downright lie if you pretend to.

For me, I feel that having the vaccine would be an unnecessary risk to me and my family as I have serious concerns over the safety, efficacy and need (for me) of the current vaccines. Concerns that I'm not willing to ignore for you, anyone else, or their granny.

Where do your concerns come from? Facts and science or paranoia and ignorance? It would be great to hear about your knowledge and experience in medicine.

I'm sorry but it really does make me laugh to think of all the scientific advances being made for people to then decide to be silly on purpose.

You can’t argue with stupid. But I will just say this:

Do you think that it’s ok for parents not to give their children MMR? Do you think that it’s perfectly acceptable to send your unvaccinated children into a setting where there are people who cannot be vaccinated, and to therefore put those children at risk?

Because this is the same.

Herd immunity relies on the majority being immune in order to protect the minority who cannot be vaccinated for whatever reason. And by cannot, I mean canno for medical reasons not idiotic ones.

As for “the majority of deaths are the double vaccinated,” you are talking bullshit. It has been very clearly stated that the majority of hospitalisations have been the non vaccinated or those with only one vaccination. So stop making up scaremongering bollocks to justify your frankly Moronic views.

A friend of mine died from COVID this morning. She lives in a country where vaccination levels are still quite low due to political issues. Her mother died first, then she fell ill, spent 33 days on a ventilator and died this morning.

So while you might not have symptoms, you might. If you don’t have symptoms then bully for you, but don’t expect people to be sympathetic if you end up in hospital and die because you were too idiotic to have a vaccine.

I subconsciously distanced myself mentally and emotionally from a friend who is anti Vax. ....only realised now I've done this although no one would know.
I'm still friends but she's gone down in my estimations and I can't help thinking she's ignorant and I expected more from her.

As someone who has a family member born deaf and blind from German measles it upsets me greatly. The long term implications on the whole family for decades is a burden I wouldn't wish on anyone.

Where do your concerns come from? Facts and science or paranoia and ignorance? It would be great to hear about your knowledge and experience in medicine.

No experience in medicine at all. Unless you count GCSE Science.

My concerns come from hours of reading, noting, researching from publically available sources. The history of the companies involved in production (including financial as well as medical), the history of MRNA tech and the previous failed trials using it, medical journals, lots of media sources - the accuracy of which is obviously highly doubtful sometimes!

It's not a decision I made lightly. And it may well be that my decision will be wrong because there are no definites. But it wasn't made from a position of ignorance.

I don’t think anyone who chooses not to have the vaccine is putting anyone at risk but themselves. Even if you’re vaccinated you can still catch and spread covid, you’re just much less likely to get very ill yourself so even vaccinated people can potentially harm others…

The idea is to vaccinate as many as possible to lower hospitalisations and deaths, the vaccine was never designed to make covid go away entirely because that just won’t happen. People seem to misunderstand this and think unvaccinated people are perpetuating the pandemic. It simply isn’t true. I am vaccinated fwiw so not an anti-vaxxer.

@Cookiebox

I subconsciously distanced myself mentally and emotionally from a friend who is anti Vax. ....only realised now I've done this although no one would know. I'm still friends but she's gone down in my estimations and I can't help thinking she's ignorant and I expected more from her.

As someone who has a family member born deaf and blind from German measles it upsets me greatly. The long term implications on the whole family for decades is a burden I wouldn't wish on anyone.

Perfectly understandable

@Wimpund21 what is the alternative to the vaccine? If we all agreed that it wasn’t the right decision to be vaccinated, what do we do instead? I’m genuinely curious what you think is a better and safer way forward (bearing in mind the huge numbers of Covid dead pre vaccine and the number of people who have died for secondary reasons - e.g not getting treatment for cancer say because the NHS is overwhelmed). I feel like it would be easier to understand your position if I could understand what you think the world should do instead?

Sorry Youdiditanyway but it’s you who are misunderstanding here.
The vaccine doesn’t 100% stop transmission. What it does do is lower it dramatically.
It is simply not the case that your choice only impacts on yourself. By having the vaccine you have approximately (based on current state of knowledge) halved the risk that you will pass covid on to somebody more vulnerable than yourself. That’s a pretty serious reduction and worth having. If everyone made that choice we would be in a better position, I am just grateful we’re in a country where the great majority have!

It's very true that we are all selfish. Even the majority of those that have chosen to be vaccinated (let's not pretend that the only reason you had the vaccine is to protect the vulnerable that can't be vaccinated). Those that have chosen not to be vaccinated are of course selfish. That's okay. It also really irks me being called anti-vax for being cautious. We're not all anti-vax by the way .

I’m not sure how a GCSE in general science has equipped you to access and, more importantly, understand scientific research papers? These papers aren’t normally available to the general public so I’m guessing you have a friend who works in research, specifically this area of research? Are they also an anti vaxxer? Sounds odd 🤔

Would you mind posting links to the research so that the rest of us can read it too? Thanks 😊

the vaccine was never designed to make covid go away entirely because that just won’t happen. People seem to misunderstand this

I agree with this - but imo it's a misunderstanding that's encouraged by the Government.

Theyre not laying out any long term plans or estimates or possibilities. They're not telling people that to remain 'vaccinated' they'll need to commit to a lifetime of annual boosters - and if not, in a year or two these people will be in nearly the same position, protection wise, as someone who's had none at all.

I think there are probably a huge amount of people who are blissfully unaware of what will be required of them for decades to come to maintain their 'vaccinated' status.

@Wimpund21

the vaccine was never designed to make covid go away entirely because that just won’t happen. People seem to misunderstand this

I agree with this - but imo it's a misunderstanding that's encouraged by the Government.

Theyre not laying out any long term plans or estimates or possibilities. They're not telling people that to remain 'vaccinated' they'll need to commit to a lifetime of annual boosters - and if not, in a year or two these people will be in nearly the same position, protection wise, as someone who's had none at all.

I think there are probably a huge amount of people who are blissfully unaware of what will be required of them for decades to come to maintain their 'vaccinated' status.

But again, I ask you what is the alternative? You say you’ve done lots of research, what is that suggesting we do instead? Because I would personally much rather an annual vaccine in a world where my parents can see my grandchildren, my business is able to function, my loved ones can access the non-Covid related healthcare they need, we can travel, children can be educated undisrupted etc. than a world of permanent lockdown. But if there is another way, please tell us. It would be the only thing that would persuade me that your viewpoint was valid and workable. The fact you haven’t been able to share this is very revealing.

If not getting the jab makes me selfish then so be it. I am happy with my choice. If I get sick thats on me but I doubt i will. I imagine you are all gladly handing your kids over to get it. Call yourselves mothers

I’m not sure how a GCSE in general science has equipped you to access and, more importantly, understand scientific research papers?

🙄 Why be so disingenuous? If you read my post and thought I seriously mentioned my GCSE in science as a testament to my superior knowledge...oh dear.

I have no medical knowledge or experience. However my job involves me researching, analysing and summarising huge amounts of info and data and then concluding my findings on complex matters. So it's in my nature to research.

Sorry but lol at me posting links! I'm not exaggerating when I said I spent hours looking into this before making my decision. Research isn't a matter of posting a list of links. It's far more nuanced - it's extracting pieces of information from a variety of sources, constructing a timeline, making educated judgements (guesses some would say!) based on the most probably reason for an action, a finding, an opinion.

In summary - no I can't post links which will prove my findings. But all of the information I've read is publically accessible, as I said.