Vaccine.. another sad story

[BountyIsUnderrated]

I've just read the below article, one little boy left without a mother and the poor father left alone to raise him.

There have been so many stories about this happening I don't know what to feel anymore.. I've been vaccinated myself but I can see why people are scared of the AZ.

It's rare yes but I don't think that would be very reassuring if someone I loved died... Is this the cost of protecting against covid?

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9732583/Mother-three-47-dies-AstraZeneca-Covid-jab-caused-blood-clots-brain.html

Given these drugs are experimental, we should be tracking properly all adverse reactions

It’s currently tracked on a voluntary basis via a system with at least half the population don’t even know exists.

So a voluntary adverse tracking system in a climate where any ‘questions’ are shut down with the anti-vaxxing label, it’s a very precarious position.

We’ve no idea how many people have died because of the vaccines

@Cindy974

Bovrilly

Im not guaranteed to catch covid so yes I’ll take my chances. As I said I worked through the height of the pandemic heavily pregnant in healthcare with absolutely no PPE, to tell you again I don’t fear covid, but I fear the vaccine which is completely okay.

Still can't fathom why out of COVID and vaccination, you have such fear for the one that's much, much less likely to cause you harm, but it's your choice 👍

@Notthemessiah sorry do you seriously find it chilling that parents are vaccinating their children when there is a 0.0004% chance they could be affected by this side effect? Not a risk taker are you! 😂

@hamstersarse

Given these drugs are experimental, we should be tracking properly all adverse reactions

It’s currently tracked on a voluntary basis via a system with at least half the population don’t even know exists.

So a voluntary adverse tracking system in a climate where any ‘questions’ are shut down with the anti-vaxxing label, it’s a very precarious position.

We’ve no idea how many people have died because of the vaccines

You don't think, if vaccines were killing a significant number of people, someone would have noticed after 77 million doses in the UK alone?

Baring in mind I worked through the height pandemic heavily pregnant on the frontline in healthcare so I just don't fear covid

@Cindy974, I’m not going to question your stance on vaccination because that’s a decision for you alone but I don’t understand this logic at all. To me that’s like saying you don’t wear a seatbelt because you’ve never been in a car crash. It would have more logic for someone to just say they don’t want to wear a seat belt or point to cases where wearing a seatbelt has actively harmed people in becoming an obstacle to escape or actually causing them injury (I knew someone who wouldn’t wear one for the latter reasons).

I suspect we disagree on this but I don’t think fear of being ill with covid itself is the primary driver behind people at low risk from the virus getting the vaccine. I’m highly unlikely to be seriously ill from measles, mumps or rubella but I still had the vaccination when a check before my employment determined I didn’t have antibodies for mumps (still don’t which is a pain!).

@Geamhradh

similar or BELOW the expected rate

Nice try, Messiah, but you're going to have to read the articles more carefully if you're trying to prove a point.

And yet:

On 1 June Israel’s health ministry said there was a “probable link” between the vaccine and myocarditis cases

and CDC data showed that there were 233 reports of myocarditis or pericarditis, when two to 25 would have been expected

So maybe you should read the article rather than scanning it and picking and choosing what to copy and paste?

Also what do you mean by 'Nice try'? Implying I'm some kind of anti-vaxx scaremonger just by posting a link to an article in the BMJ and suggesting it's worthy of consideration for one section of society and particularly appropriate for a site devoted to parenting. 'Nice try' yourself.

@Geamhradh

similar or BELOW the expected rate

Nice try, Messiah, but you're going to have to read the articles more carefully if you're trying to prove a point.

Great reassuring article, indeed. Hope they will start vaccinating dc soon in UK.

[quote ForeverAintEnough3]@Notthemessiah sorry do you seriously find it chilling that parents are vaccinating their children when there is a 0.0004% chance they could be affected by this side effect? Not a risk taker are you! 😂[/quote]
Not when it's not me taking the risk, no.

I didn't say it was chilling either, that was the PP. I just said it should make you pause for thought, which to be honest anyone should do before having their kids vaccinated for anything.

It may well later be confirmed that the risks are still laregely outweighed by the risks of COVID, in which case it still makes sense for children to be vaccinated.

What we certainly shouldn't be doing is vaccinating kids for anything other than their own personal benefit. I don't want my kids taking risks to protect me, their grandparents or anyone else no matter how small they may be if they don't have to.

I feel like I am often banging my head against the wall on these threads.

Why is it always presented as 'you don't want AZ therefore you are an anti-vaxxer who is going to die from Covid or get long covid' rather than a sensible debate about whether the potential side affects from AZ are potentially so catastrophic that an alternative vaccine should be provided to anyone who does not wish to receive AZ.

I personally think it is completely unethical to keep forcing a particular vaccine on some all age groups when there are alternative more effective vaccines available. And if there are shortages of alternative vaccines (I am still to see the evidence of this btw) order more. We had enough money to buy pretty useless LFT so why not more of the alternative vaccines.

These vaccine death numbers are so tiny it hurts my brain that we're on page 9 discussing them

@Notthemessiah, oh, I did read it. Thoroughly. I did get a bit lost with the numbers though. Perhaps you could help?
1 in 5 people may die if they develop the ("relatively common especially in young adults") issues mentioned following the vaccine.
So far 1226 cases have been reported.
300,000,000 vaccines have been administered.
So 20% of 1226, then divided by 300,000,000. To give your "probability" of dying.
It's kind of like quantum physics really.

And likewise I will not be vaccinating DC for the benefit of others. Covid is generally a mild illness for children for them so why would I vaccinate them and risk side-effects from a vaccination? It is unethical to expect children to be vaccinated to 'protect' others.

@NotSoLongGoodbye

I feel like I am often banging my head against the wall on these threads.

Why is it always presented as 'you don't want AZ therefore you are an anti-vaxxer who is going to die from Covid or get long covid' rather than a sensible debate about whether the potential side affects from AZ are potentially so catastrophic that an alternative vaccine should be provided to anyone who does not wish to receive AZ.

I personally think it is completely unethical to keep forcing a particular vaccine on some all age groups when there are alternative more effective vaccines available. And if there are shortages of alternative vaccines (I am still to see the evidence of this btw) order more. We had enough money to buy pretty useless LFT so why not more of the alternative vaccines.

We seem to have moved on from AZ tbf. We're now going to die from Pfizer/Moderna. If we're a subatomic particle.

@toolatetooearly
But likewise the Covid deaths of young people with no underlying health conditions, no additional risk factors such as obesity or being from a BAME background are tiny but I have been subjected to hearing about these for close on 18 months now. What's the difference?

@NotSoLongGoodbye

no difference! also tiny!

You die 'with' covid, it's covid on your death certificate. You die 2 days after having the vaccine, it's just a coincidence.

Very very sad for this lady and for all the others. The main issue I have is why they are clamping down on such stories. Everything should be transparent in my opinion.

But the absolute scientific fact remains that dying from a blood clot in the period following the vaccine is a) literally one in a million b) hard to prove the correlation between clot and AZ (or indeed other vaccines- let's not forget more people have died after Pfizer worldwide than AZ) would she have developed a blood clot anyway? Nobody will ever know

Exactly. HOW do we know? Where is the evidence to show that it's a 'one in a million' chance of dying following the vaccine?

You die 'with' covid, it's covid on your death certificate. You die 2 days after having the vaccine, it's just a coincidence

You do realise the covid vaccine is implicated on the death certificate of the lady the OP linked in the very first post?

I mean there’s blinkered and then there’s wilfully popping your eyes out.

Exactly. HOW do we know? Where is the evidence to show that it's a 'one in a million' chance of dying following the vaccine?

Well unless you think there is a huge conspiracy of secret vaccine deaths that all the hospitals, GPs, govt and relatives of the deceased are in on, we know how many people have been vaccinated and we know how many have died because of the vaccine. Then it's a very easy calculation.

@Notthemessiah I presume you also wouldn’t give your children any antibiotics? After all they would have a 0.05% chance of anaphylactic shock from taking penicillin, much higher than the 0.0004% chance of myocarditis from vaccine? Surely an antibiotic is also an absolutely last resort for you given the risk to your children?

The whole issue here is people have decided the vaccine is way too risky while simultaneously ignoring the risk from things they take on a daily basis without even considering the risks.

Suddenly those risks are too great for the vaccine. I wonder if the difference is the massive online anti vaccine agenda scaring people, where one doesn’t exist for penicillin.

Exactly. HOW do we know? Where is the evidence to show that it's a 'one in a million' chance of dying following the vaccine?

I could cry at the stupidity of people on this thread. Self appointed experts without even a semblance of rational thought. The internet has a lot to answer for.

@Actualfactual

These are the up to date figures for VITT with a proven link to the AZ vaccine. Given that it's highest in 40-59 I'm not sure why the government is still giving this age group AZ.

AZ doesn't have approval in USA, NZ not using at all and Aust withdrawing it completely by Oct. All other European countries are restricting it to over 55s or over 60s based on similar or smaller figures for blood clots.

If there was no alternative then the risk would absolutely be worth it for most, but as there is an alternative without this risk it seems unfair that the government and JCVI are having 40-60 year olds continue to take this very real risk.

And most fatal cases are in the 50-59 group. I had my second AZ almost four weeks ago, I am in my fifties, I would much rather have had Pfizer as the second dose, and I regret not waiting to see if that was possible . Yes the risk is small but I feel the under sixties at the very least should be given the choice now, while they work out what in the Az is causing this.

It's appalling. When vaccines started anyone who was concerned about side effects was told they were a stupid anti vaxxer then just weeks later the AZ was stopped for under 40s. Proof that they're just winging this whole thing.

@NotSoLongGoodbye

And likewise I will not be vaccinating DC for the benefit of others. Covid is generally a mild illness for children for them so why would I vaccinate them and risk side-effects from a vaccination? It is unethical to expect children to be vaccinated to 'protect' others.

Is it though? Again we have a precedent with our current vaccination programmes. The flu vaccine is given to young children for exactly the purpose of reducing the spread in the general community and therefore putting the more vulnerable to flu at risk. Rubella is primarily about protecting pregnant women and their unborn babies. Most childhood vaccinations have evolved that way because there is always a fresh generation vulnerable to disease whereas there is an inherent immunity (naturally or vaccine acquired) in the older age groups so we target the group (babies) that is most likely to allow a contagion to circulate risking spread to the rest of the community and allowing instances of vaccine failure or disease evolution.

At their core vaccinations work because any benefit to an individual is shared by the wider community.

It's appalling. When vaccines started anyone who was concerned about side effects was told they were a stupid anti vaxxer then just weeks later the AZ was stopped for under 40s. Proof that they're just winging this whole thing

If 'they're' winging it what would you do instead?

@charlotteself

It's appalling. When vaccines started anyone who was concerned about side effects was told they were a stupid anti vaxxer then just weeks later the AZ was stopped for under 40s. Proof that they're just winging this whole thing.

Everybody is ‘winging’ it. This is an entirely new disease and the impact of the pandemic globally is unprecedented. There are no experienced experts in covid or global pandemics on this scale.

We can either accept that we have people available who have transferable knowledge and experience who are capable of making reasoned projections or we can demand experience that simply doesn’t exist. Realistically we can’t wait a couple more years for those with the skills to become ‘experts’ and morally we can’t ignore the tools that we have available.