Anti semitism - Bondi beach - when will it stop?

[mids2019]

Thoughts and prayers to those killed and injured in Australia.

We aren't in a Nazi Germany style situation.
To me, it does feel as though the past couple of years have seen strong manipulation of social media to the point where condemnation of Israel has become mandatory and people are falling over themselves to "virtue signal" in the most ridiculous ways (e.g. Eurovision, Glastonbury).

Condemnation of Israel then blurs the boundaries for broader acceptance of antisemitism generally, such as "but Gaza!" being apparently a fairly automatic/standard response to events such as the Bondi attack.

All this does remind me of pre-WW2 Germany, in that there is a similar distortion of what is considered socially acceptable/encouraged. I've seen many posts on MN saying that Israel is now the pariah of the world, and they have said so with glee, not regret.

Here's a photo taken at the rally in London on 14 October 2023, which was organised on 7 October 2023. Such an expensive-looking array of banners demanding the right of Palestine to exist... as though that was ever in question, rather than the existence of Israel, which has always been a thorn in the side of all the rich and powerful Middle Eastern countries that want it obliterated.

The Hamas/Gazan atrocities of 7/10 opened things up for a meticulously planned global PR strategy to vilify Israel to the point where people more or less respond to antisemitic attacks with a shrug of the shoulders and "Well, what do you expect..."

I know some PPs will pounce on this and say that Israel has done all this damage to itself, through its own actions. I'd say they have been cleverly placed in an impossible situation where everything they have done, or could do, plays into a propaganda machine focused on Israel's ultimate destruction - something that could not be achieved militarily, but can certainly be achieved indirectly by other means.

Excellent post @Beachtastic 12.36

Such an expensive-looking array of banners demanding the right of Palestine to exist... as though that was ever in question, rather than the existence of Israel, which has always been a thorn in the side of all the rich and powerful Middle Eastern countries that want it obliterated

"the right to Palestine to exist... as though that has ever been in question??

Come on, the Israelis want Palestine gone, the illegal actions on the settlers and the IDF in the west bank, inc destroying farms, beating up olive farmers, destroying crops..... the extension of the border into Lebanon, the complete destruction of Gaza.

You are aware of the statements from Israeli govt ministers, sanctioned by the UK and others for their racist and violent statements towards Palestinians? one of these guys is also a fan of a settler who massacred 30 Palestinians as they sat praying.

Yes for a secure homeland for Israel, as should all rightminded individuals but why is it at the expense of the ordinary Palestinians?

& why the scorn at banners? do you believe people shouldn't be able to protest against Israeli actions?

That's a very sweeping statement, "the Israelis want Palestine gone" - they are individuals you know with differing opinions. The Settlers are extremists and so are certain members of the coalition government in Israel. They do not represent what everyone in Israel thinks.

And the issue with the banners is that they were all ready and professionally made just a week after the Hamas massacre of Israel civilians. Don't you think the timing is strange given that normally when a country experiences an attack on that big a scale, the first response of the world is sympathy and support? Why was there more apparent support for Palestine than Israel given that Israel was the country that had been attacked? It looks very much like antisemitism.

You don't see anything suspicious about the timing of this (organised on 7 Oct 2023) or the massive turnout (tens of thousands) and lavishly produced signage? I know the "Palestine" question has been around for some time (I used to vaguely think Israel must be bastards, until 7/10 made me realise the importance of border security), but a demo like that in London and Manchester seems disproportionate given that no one in the UK usually gives a shit about incomprehensible Middle Eastern wars.

It looks very much like antisemitism

To me, it looks very much like organised propaganda to encourage a certain one-directional view, and so far it has clearly been extremely effective.

No more a sweeping statement than saying all Palestinians want Israel destroyed or people carrying these banners are all antisemitic.

The Police, the IDF and the Government turn a blind eye to settler violence and polling in Israel shows that the vast majority do not see the death toll in Gaza as an issue.
724,000 settlers in the west bank as off 2024, so more now - what has the Israeli government, past or present, ever done about this? they are illegal settlements.

People with access to screen printers can easily make up cheap banners but i do agree, the timing is/was awful, i didn't support that at all, the focus should have been solely on that terrible attack Israel suffered.

No one said all Palestinians want Israel destroyed.

No one said all the people carrying these banners are antisemitic. My personal opinion is that some are useful idiots, maybe you don't like that label either but it is my opinion that some are deluded. They think they are being good people even when attending demonstrations with banners hostile to Israel immediately after Israel civilians have suffered a terrible massacre and kidnappings .

I'm busy, so cheating and got Copilot to do the legwork on explaining why I think the rallies were organised on 7/10:

Reverse psychology in abusive contexts often takes the form of narrative manipulation, where the aggressor reframes themselves as the victim. Twisting the narrative early is crucial for the aggressor—it sets the tone, creates confusion, and undermines the victim’s ability to defend themselves.
🔄 How Reverse Psychology Works in Aggressor–Victim Dynamics

• Core mechanism: Reverse psychology relies on contradiction and manipulation. Instead of openly defending their harmful behavior, the aggressor reframes the situation so the victim appears responsible.
• DARVO tactic: A well-documented pattern is Deny, Attack, and Reverse Victim and Offender (DARVO). The aggressor:
• Denies wrongdoing (“I didn’t do that”).
• Attacks the victim’s credibility (“You’re exaggerating, you’re unstable”).
• Reverses roles, presenting themselves as the one harmed (“You’re the one hurting me”) Verywell Mind innermasteryhub.com.
• Psychological impact: Victims often feel confused, guilty, or silenced. This undermines their confidence and makes them question their own perception of events Verywell Mind.

⏳ Why Early Narrative Control Matters

• First impressions dominate: Whoever frames the situation first often shapes how outsiders perceive it. If the aggressor immediately claims victimhood, observers may side with them.
• Preemptive defense: By twisting the narrative early, aggressors block accountability before evidence or testimony can surface.
• Gaslighting effect: Early manipulation destabilizes the victim’s reality, making them doubt their memory or interpretation of events.
• Isolation strategy: Aggressors often use early narrative control to alienate the victim from allies, portraying them as unreliable or even abusive themselves lindacjturner.com.

They do.

https://news.met.police.uk/news/man-charged-over-alleged-antisemitic-chanting-504459

Good. These hate filled individuals need dealing with. We've put up with their spreading hatred too long. It's not acceptable.

Actually even the most despicable terrorists want to believe that they are acting for the "good guys" or doing the"right thing " or for the right cause.

Let's say that you start off harbouring anti semetic views, these are increased through algorithmic social media feeding you views that you want to hear. Now you are angry and really anti semitic.

You then see lots of protest marches with lots of people shouting for action and shouting to globalise terrorism. You then see a black and white good versus bad. So that shooting ordinary Australian Jews including a 10 year old girl is killing the "bad guys".

So whilst the protest marches don't per se drive people to commit murder they do encourage people to think that murder of the other side is a justifiable and supported action.

I’m finding it very hard to cope with the story of Matilda. It’s so moving to me that her parents, Ukrainian Jews, moved to Australia and for their firstborn chose the most Australian name they could think of. As Ukrainian Jews, God only knows what generational horror and trauma lies in their background. And yet, they move to the new world and rather than looking back they choose to look forward and embrace their new home, recognising that Australian citizenship is an incredible stroke of good fortune.

life is just too cruel sometimes.

Can I just repeat, because you seem to have missed it (deliberately or otherwise) that to abhor the occupation of and violence carried out in Palestine is not antisemitic.

It's very convenient for the Israeli government to pretend it is obviously, it's a deliberate tactic to silence opposition.

@Sugarnspicenallthingsnaice but the alternative to the “occupation” would be to sit back and do nothing in the face of persistent rocket attacks, repeated acts of terrorism and aggression which are ultimately aimed at wiping Israel from the face of the earth. So if you support the Jewish right to a homeland surely you must accept they have the right to self defence.

Can I also just repeat because you also seem to have missed it.

You can claim not to be a racist and simply have concerns over levels of immigration. But if you frequently post on social media your concerns about immigration or say attend a Tommy Robinson march in the company of people who do chant racist slogans then don't be surprised if you are also perceived as a racist.

Equally you can claim not to be anti semetic and simply have concerns about Gaza. But if you frequently post on social media your views about Gaza or say attend a pro Palestinian march in the company of people who do chant anti semetic slogans then don't be surprised if you are also perceived as a anti semetic.

So you’re saying that the occupation, the occupation which is internationally recognised as illegal, is necessary?

Do you realise what you’re saying?

@SameOldHill yes it’s necessary, if you believe in Israel’s right to exist.

And what about the Palestinians right to exist in Palestine? Do you respect their right to exist?

@SameOldHill I’m not entirely sure what you mean by “Palestine” but yes of cousss, just stop attacking Israel.

I’m not defending the settlers of course but they are a very small part of the overall story.

Why are the settlers a small part of the overall story, yet the Palestinians attacking Israel a big part of the story?

What is the body count? Since 1948, what is the body count on both sides?

@SameOldHill because the scale of the settler violence doesn’t compare with October 7, the incessant rocket attacks on Israel launched from Gaza or the innumerable wars launched against it by its enemies. It also is not of the scale of Hamas and Iran’s stated aim to wipe Israel off the face of the earth and murder all Jews.

I don’t see the relevance of body count when it comes to warfare. German deaths in WWII were around 7.5 million, British around 450,000. What does that prove?

Why don’t you see the relevance of body count?

You’ve just said that the scale of settler violence doesn’t compare to October 7th, but then in your next paragraph, that the scale of body count is not relevant. Which one is it?

And what do you mean by warfare? Was Hind Rajab at war? Was Anne Frank at war? Were Jumaa and Fadi Abu Assi at war when they went to collect firewood? Does body count not matter when it comes to civilian life?

@SameOldHill I said the scale of the threat to the Palestinian people
from the settlers is not the same as the existential risk facing Israel, not only from Hamas and Hezbollah but Iran etc.

It is only in relation to the Israel Gaza conflict that the concept of “proportionality” is raised.

You dont think there is an existential risk faced by the Palestinians?

Who is suffering most at the moment? Who is living in tents? Who has been bombed out of their homes and seen their hospitals, schools and places of worship destroyed? Who has had to sit and wait whilst other countries discuss whether they should be shipped off to another country or not?

All excellent reasons not to start a war.

It’s 20 years since Israel withdrew from Gaza, instead of spending the billions on international aid on building tunnels and arming themselves they could have created something wonderful. Also a great pity that Egypt wouldn’t annd won’t open its border to them.