Anti semitism - Bondi beach - when will it stop?

[mids2019]

Thoughts and prayers to those killed and injured in Australia.

You possibly quoted the wrong poster?

However, its probably because the death tolls.... 70,000 as against 1200, plus hostages and that the Israeli govt has ruled out any 2 state option.

But yes i accept there are antisemites/Hamas supporters at marches too, just as there are people who have zero sympathy for Palestinian deaths or the Palestinians dispossessed in the West Bank.

Oops apologies @Southernecho .

@Southernecho and in answer to your other points, the two state solution was only ruled out by this Israeli government post the October 7 attacks. Obviously they’ve been offered it multiple times in the past but they’re hardly likely to reward the biggest terrorist attack on Jews in history with a Palestinian state.

Personally I can understand that as a homicidal death cult, committed to the murder of all Jews globally and the abolition of Israel and willing to sacrifice civilians in this aim, why Hamas didn’t return the hostages and end the bloodshed.

It’s a lot harder to understand why pro Palestinian protesters didn’t focus on demanding the hostages be returned in the name of Gazan civilians. Indeed posters of the hostages (including children) were routinely defaced around the world, all in the name of the Pro- Palestinian movement.

This is what I've never understood. Blame for Palestinian suffering lies as much, if not more, with Hamas. Even last week they were hoarding baby milk rather than distributing it.

I cannot argue with this, i actually agree with what you ve posted.

Normal people don't do these things.

I guess from Hamas POV, the hostages were "currency" to limit Israel counters (that didn't work) and to get Palestinians released form Israeli jails, the plight of the Hostages has always seen secondary to IDF aims (imho)

Its a cycle of violence that has been on going since at least 1948 and i suspect it will carry on for another 80 years plus too.

@Southernecho I agree with you too - how nice to be able to find common ground and discuss the issue with courtesy. Happy Christmas!

& a very Merry Christmas to you and yours!

Lets all hope that 2026 will see less death and destruction in the world.

With 80% of UN nations recognising Palestine now and therefore being pro Palestinian, I don’t think you can link posters being defaced (which is horrible and wrong) with people being pro Palestinian in general. You’ll find that an awful lot of people are simply against innocent people being killed whether that is Jewish people in Australia or the Palestinian people.

Netanyahu had made it clear that returning the hostages wouldn’t end the war. Another goal was to “destroy Hamas” which seemed quite abstract and never ending, particularly as they didn’t want a “after Hamas” plan in place.

And here we are now. One hostage to be returned and ordinary Palestinian civilians, half of whom are children are still suffering and dying. We still have aid restrictions, we still don’t have international journalists on the ground.

By positioning the people who are anti Palestinian people dying and suffering as being automatically the kind of person who rips down the poster of a hostage, you risk alienating those who are also against Jewish people being targeted in anti Semitic terrorism and other ways.

It’s simplistic to describe all nations that recognise Palestine as a state as being “pro Palestinian” in the context of the war. Many governments like the UK would say that they support both Israel & Palestine and want a peaceful 2 state solution. Unfortunately Hamas does not want a 2 state solution (neither do Israel at the moment) so that is unlikely to happen for a very long time. Recognising a state that cannot exist at the moment was a bit performative in my opinion. Though I am someone who would like to see a two state solution one day.

Things will not get substantially better for the people of Gaza while Hamas are still in charge because no country wants to invest billions in rebuilding Gaza while they are still there. So for anyone who cares about the suffering of civilians, the elimination or surrender of Hamas has to be a first step in rebuilding the whole of Gaza. More humanitarian aid is getting in since the ceasefire but there is still food insecurity and people are still living in tents in winter. Anyone decent is upset by these conditions regardless of whether they are considered “pro Israel” because they also care about Israel & the right of their civilians not to be attacked by Hamas.

Pro Palestinian protesters on the other hand do not tend to also support Israel, and the ones that go as far as defacing or ripping down the posters of hostages or using rhetoric/holding placards promoting violence to Israelis really have a problem with being full of hate. Not all protesters are like this of course but there have been enough for people - especially Jewish people - to find the protests threatening.

Well, Hamas do not represent all Palestinians at all and i would argue that Israel didn't want a 2 state solution long before Oct 7th, if they did, they d have never allowed the settlers, over 700k to move into the West Bank.

If Hamas are still in charge in Gaza, what on earth was the 70k deaths and the mass destruction all about?

I don't know the motivations or beliefs of the pro Palestinian protestors, some will be anti semitic of course, many others will be appalled at the (their belief) loss of free speech, some will want the war to just stop, others naïve.

it should be noted than many Israeli officials and leading politicians have described Palestinians as "Sub-Human" using the term before October 7th, another has denied there is even such a thing as "Palestinian people"

When an Israeli politician condemned the destruction of a Palestinian cemetery he was widely rounded upon.

Polling in Israel shows the majority believe there are no innocents in Gaza.

No Hamas don’t represent all Palestinians & equally the current Israeli government with their extreme right wing coalition do not represent all Israelis.

Israel has offered a 2 state solution in the past so it’s feasible they would do so again in the future- not under this government but they won’t be in power forever. However it’s not realistic to suppose Hamas would ever agree to a 2 state solution since they want to kill Jews not live alongside them.

I don’t understand the rest of your point about Hamas still being in control so what was the point in going to war with them. Do you think Israel should just let Hamas attack their civilians whenever they get the opportunity because they are hard to defeat? Many thousands of Hamas militants and many of their top leaders have been killed in the war which makes them less dangerous even if they haven’t all been killed. A large number of their tunnels have been destroyed. Israel can hardly be blamed for agreeing to the ceasefire which meant that the IDF paused killing Hamas militants in such big numbers. If Hamas hadn’t been hiding in urban areas amongst civilians then the IDF would have kept going & fewer would still be alive now. The ceasefire has left Hamas still in charge in about half of Gaza but was necessary on humanitarian grounds. The problem of defeating them entirely is up to phase 2 of the peace plan & the success of that will not just be down to Israel.

If we’re going to talk about polling then the majority of Gazans in polls supported Hamas’s attack on Israelis in the massacre of 7/10. They supported the kidnappings. I believe fewer still think it was the right decision now but probably only because of the repercussions. Hamas still have a lot of support in Gaza. That’s what makes some Israelis feel there are “no innocents” though obviously children are innocent and it’s completely wrong for anyone to blame all Palestinians for Hamas & other jihadist groups. Also it’s completely wrong to blame all Israelis or Jews around the world for the actions & words of some of their leaders.

Quite a bit of deflection in there.

I just showed that polling does show the general population support/don't care about the destruction of Gaza and that no Govt serious about a 2 state would annex the very land that would make the basis for such a solution.

Israel stopped attacking, not because of the death toll, they clearly don't care about that, but because the US made them, though in all honestly the cease fire is all but over, bombing continues.

How is an accurate poll conducted in Gaza, a war zone? & the polling i saw was mainly conducted in the West Bank.

100% agree

You mentioned a poll I mentioned another poll so I don't see how that's a deflection. The truth is Hamas has always enjoyed a lot of support in Gaza even outside of wartime.

We agree that the current Israel government is not interested in a 2 state solution. The difference is that Israel have democratic elections every few years so the current government will not be in power for decades.

Yes the decision to agree to the ceasefire was largely influenced by what Trump wanted, on both sides. But Trump himself was influenced by the humanitarian crisis so I would say the ceasefire was because of humanitarian reasons. It wasn't that the IDF needed to have a ceasefire so it's a bit rich people that wanted a ceasefire (most of us, surely) now criticising Israel for the fact so many Hamas militants are still alive. Would you rather the war started up again?

And as for saying "the ceasefire is all but over" that's ridiculous and do you really want to find out what happens if Israel did decide to end the ceasefire? There has been a big increase in humanitarian aid since the ceasefire and a big reduction in fighting and bombing.

Hamas aren't sticking to the exact terms of the ceasefire, neither are the IDF. But to say the ceasefire is all but over is to very much minimise the Hell that would inevitably follow if Netanyahu with the backing of Trump did decide to end the ceasefire.

Its deflection because you point blank refuse to accept the polling in Israel that shows the pop. do not care about the plight of the Palestinians, instead bring up another poll, which included (the majority asked) West Bank Palestinians, it was also (the poll i saw) done over 2 years ago.

Trump was influenced by a certain Noble Peace prize, he doesn't give a stuff about the Palestinians or anyone else, do you see him bothered about the 10s of 1000s of Ukrainian children taken into Russia?
No its all about appeasing the aggressor and getting a deal signed at any cost.

I listened to a horrific program on sexual abuse of Palestinians held in jails without trial, involving inserting objects into bodily orifices, cause severe injury, also gang rape and other reproductive abuse -nothing done about, all dismissed buy the authorities & by anyone else who supports this Israeli Govt.

Israel may well have elections but given the current view of the pop. against Palestinians, they are hardly likely to swing in behind a more liberal Govt and what about in the meantime?

I specifically said "Ceasefire all but over..." no "over"

They have certainly committed war crimes, and crimes against humanity. The level of tolerance for them in the West, I find extraordinary.

I did not "point blank refuse" to accept the poll you mentioned. I just didn't comment on it. You didn't comment on the poll I mentioned either but I didn't assume you were refusing to accept it. Looking at polls doesn't really help the debate because it just makes you think the whole situation in Gaza is hopeless as everyone seems to hate everyone which may in fact be the case.

No one said Trump actually cared about the humanitarian crisis only that he was influenced by it - mainly because bringing about a ceasefire made him look good and yes he was angling at the time for a Nobel peace prize.

Israel may well vote in a more liberal government next time, there's a lot of dissatisfaction with Netanyahu and the way he tolerates the more right wing members of his government while at the same time saying he doesn't necessarily agree with them. He could be voted out next year. There will never be another election for the Palestinians while Hamas are in charge of course, which should be at least as big a concern as who Israel vote for next time.

Not mentioning it, is tantamount to point blank refusal is it not?

Why wouldn't each side hate each other - everyone in Gaza has either had family members killed, injured and they all been made homeless several times, would you forgive the country that did this?
The young people growing up in this, are the next generation of terrorists.

Equally, the Israelis will have no time for a Hamas led population, that committed the 7/10 atrocity, why would Israel forgive that evil act.

My main point, is that each and every Israeli Govt has supported settlers moving into the West Bank, so whilst Netanyahu may go, his replacement wont reverse/change long standing policies, 60% of the WB is controlled by Israel, so there cannot be a Palestinian state, its no logistically impossible.

How could there be any sort of election in Gaza? the place no longer exists, schools hospitals roads homes all gone.

So as i suggested to another poster, the conflict will carry on and on....😥

It’s a tragic situation and one I don’t see finishing. I fear that the West Bank will slowly be taken over, the yellow line will inch closer to the Mediterranean and the remaining Palestinians will be marginalised in their own country.

Then in a few hundred years time, there will be a moral handwringing and everyone will see the bigger picture with the gift of hindsight.

Not mentioning something that someone has said is different to point blank refusing to accept it. You don't know whether I accept it or not because I didn't comment on it and right now I can't even remember what issue we're talking about.

So we seem to have come to the gloomy conclusion that both sides hate each other equally and always will - great.

Not everyone in Israel even amongst government officials supports the Settlers but the war has made the Settlers more not less likely to be allowed to stay. And there are so many reasons why a Palestinian state is impossible at the current time. The Settlers are one of them but also they have no proper leadership or boundaries or anything.

There hasn't been an election in Gaza since 2006 so it's not to do with the current war that Hamas won't call an election. I actually think that you could be right that the conflict will carry on and on indefinitely. Or until people with a great deal of money get even richer out of carving up Gaza for themselves.

It is the IDF that are killing, injuring and starving Palestinians in their thousands, and destroying their cities and towns. All due to the foul actions of a few extremists.

There seems to be no end point of what Palestinians have to suffer. Despite, them not being Nazis, or having a fully-fledged military defend them.

No you didn't so i 'll draw my own conclusions.

There are 700k settlers, they have official towns, councils, they wont be going anywhere, you re using the current conflict as some sort of excuse but they have been taking more and more of the WB over many years, long before 7/10.

My first memory of the this conflict was the Munich killings, then the Yom Kippur war.

These conflicts aren't going away, they are intractable, Kissinger never got anywhere, neither will Trump or anyone else, it will end (regionally) when one side is destroyed and scattered, which will be the Palestinians, going on current Israeli policy, but then it will move even more widely, with terrorism anywhere.

I have no idea what the answer is

I don't think anyone does tbh. It feels like a problem without a solution.

At 6.47 a minute of silence in Australia for the 15 murdered.

It is approx that time now in the UK.

In Memory of Matilda bee and the 14 others.

https://youtube.com/shorts/2rOYW3EODME?si=hGAZ3Itk6aRtjQyo