How can anyone be proud to be anti Zionist

[mids2019]

https://www.meforum.org/hitler-antizionism

Hitler was an anti Zionist and instigated the most heinous genocide in world history. A genocide so systematic if caused the world to reflect on itself. Hamas are anti Zionist and produced the worst terrorist massacre per head in history. The September 11th attackers had an anti Zionist agenda. Iran is openly anti Zionist and was prepared to develop a nuclear weapon to reduce Israel to ashes.

We now have Zara Sultana, an MP in this country now claiming to be an anti Zionist? How low can we go as far as racial hatred is concerned?Do these ideologues reflect on what they are actually saying?

But arguing about the existence of Israel is kind of moot because it does exist, and whatever the wrongs of its founding, this is not the fault of every Jew who lives there now

I agree. Lots of countries have been founded in ways that are unjust. What’s done cannot be undone. The difference in the case of Israel is that it’s so recent and the people who have suffered from its inception are still very much alive and still feeling the effects.

Well, I am not anti-Zionist, and have no religion, but there are Jews who are anti-Zionist on theological grounds who believe that it is wrong to found a Jewish state before the coming of the messiah. It's a pretty orthodox view but was more widespread around the time Zionism was emerging. By 'valid' I mean not anti-semitic - so by this definition this view would count.

Agree that everyone is there now so, to put it frankly, people are going to have to find a peaceful political solution. The current horror didn't need to happen - Netanyahu supported Hamas and sowed division to suit his political interests. He is a truly evil man. The terrorists are also evil and want to keep the conflict going for their own selfish reasons. They don't want peace for their own people.

That's why I wish people would focus on the real villains, the people stoking conflict, rather than 'Zionism' which handily takes the focus away.

I completely agree with you regarding the fact that Israelis born and bred in Israel are not responsible for the actions of the soldiers in 1948 who took part in massacres. No one is responsible for the actions of their ancestors or the actions of people who share the same religion or ethnicity as them. The Irish were persecuted by the British on and off for 800 years and I am happily with an English man for two decades and my child has English, Welsh and Irish ancestors.

However, the problem is that the killing never stopped, the land grabs never stopped. Every year there are more houses demolished in the West Bank and Israel expands it’s territory over and over again. If you know your governments policy is to bring in people from abroad and let them violently steal houses and territory from another group - if you vote for that government knowing their policies you are somewhat responsible. If you live in a house that your ancestors stole by force and you continue to live in it knowing that, you are somewhat responsible. I was listening to an interview with an IDF soldier who said he never shot anyone or took part in proper violence but he maintains he and all other IDF soldiers are somewhat complicit by the nature of the orders they carry out. In his case he was tasked with raiding random people’s houses, waking them up at all hours and terrorising them at gun point each night to make the IDF’s presence known, so they were always on edge because they never knew when it would happen. You can be directly and indirectly responsible for crimes!

Personally I believe the only real solution is to have one state, a united state of Israel and Palestine, with equal representation at government level and all religion removed from government policy. All land stolen in the last 20-30 years returned or the people compensated and anyone with dual citizenship involved in violence having their citizenship revoked. Remove religion from all schools and ban segregation in education. When people attend the same schools, enjoy the same rights and freedoms, live in the same streets and shop in the same shops dialogue happens and people start to see that at the end of the day we are all the same. I don’t object to jewish, christian or muslim people living in the area, I object to people not paying for their properties, committing violent acts or treating others differently based on religion or ethnicity.

All land stolen in the last 20-30 years
I would extend it further back because the majority of people in Gaza are crammed in there because they were forced out in 1948. You also have the land taken since 1967.

Many people argue that the One State solution would be the effective end of the only Jewish state in the world because they would be so greatly outnumbered but the alternative, to carry on as it is, is much worse.

There is also the question of revenge. If I were an Israeli Jew I’d be scared of a unified state for sure but people often cite the 2 million Muslims who managed to stay peacefully in the new Israel so there is that hope I guess. The balance would be totally flipped if the Palestinians were allowed back to their rightful lands. It really is a problem that has no just solution.

To me anti Zionist is simply code for advocating for the non existence of Israel and I would find it interesting to hear the likes of Zara argue that is not their belief. It would obviously be disturbing for a public figure to call outwardly for such a resolution so anti Zionist is an easy cover. I was making the point of drawing parallels with others that have held or hold anti Zionist views to show the company that held/hold such views. You could be against settler expansion in the West bank but you can simply state that position as many main stream politicians have; to proudly be anti Zionist is not a statement about expansion into Palestinian areas as they currently stand but in my mind an unequivocal stance about the foundation of an entire state and a hidden (or not so hidden) desire to remove the Jewish population to allow this to bappen.

desire to remove the Jewish population to allow this to bappen.
I think that is the crux of the disagreement.
Does arguing against the existence of Israel as it is in its current state mean the removal of the Jewish population?

And if they do mean that, when people say the removal of the Jewish population, do they mean extermination or displacement?

One could ask the same questions about extreme Israeli politicians, but I’d like to know what you think people who call themselves anti-zionists mean.

Just for the record I don’t believe in displacement of anyone, past, present or future, Israeli, Palestinian, whoever. I believe those who were displaced have the right to return and that those who are there now have the right to stay. I’d like to see this applied to everyone, although I recognise it’s hopelessly optimistic and the two interests irreconcilable.

This.

Something like the Good Friday Agreement is needed, but that took Ireland, the UK, the US and the EU to make happen. I don't see Israel or Hamas in that zone yet. Israel as currently constituted cannot continue, but the path to a peaceful solution will be long and painful.

Could you elaborate on ‘Israel as currently constituted cannot continue’?

What do you want to happen and who do you propose makes it stop?

I find the responses to this thread fascinating.

Would we even be having a debate on whether a Muslim state should exist?

Should the 50+ majority Muslim States be allowed to exist?

What about Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Yemen, Iraq?

All previously part of the Ottoman Empire. All involved population shifts and displacement in their creation as nation States.

No issues with those countries?

This is just faux naivety, given the circumstances around the creation of Israel and the post 1948 events, you know precisely what the debate is focused.

Sometimes the silence says more than the noise.

Or apparently Pakistan, partitioned at a similar time, for similar reasons, with millions displaced and dead and a rather massive diaspora who don't have their own refugee agency.

The circumstances around the creation of Pakistan are very different from those of the creation of Israel.

What do you see as the main differences?

It was created in a way that made 800,000+ people displaced from their homes, thousands murdered. You can’t help one group by hurting another!

I was replying to a specific question, not endorsing this

Pakistan was created for refugees from India.

millions were displaced/murdered/died during partition

So are you saying this makes it okay to do?

Apologies, misunderstood!

Nobody is calling for Pakistan or Bangladesh to be reabsorbed into India or for displaced Sikhs to have a right of return as far as I know, maybe it's under reported.

Are you saying that’s different or the same?

And there were lots of massacres and bloodshed in the partition so surely that’s not an aspirational thing? I might be misunderstanding your argument!