How can anyone be proud to be anti Zionist

[mids2019]

https://www.meforum.org/hitler-antizionism

Hitler was an anti Zionist and instigated the most heinous genocide in world history. A genocide so systematic if caused the world to reflect on itself. Hamas are anti Zionist and produced the worst terrorist massacre per head in history. The September 11th attackers had an anti Zionist agenda. Iran is openly anti Zionist and was prepared to develop a nuclear weapon to reduce Israel to ashes.

We now have Zara Sultana, an MP in this country now claiming to be an anti Zionist? How low can we go as far as racial hatred is concerned?Do these ideologues reflect on what they are actually saying?

pp said the partition of Pakistan was completely different to the partition of Israel.

I was exploring their reasoning.

No one would be commenting on 1948 if the violence, displacement and land grabs had ended there. We would say that it was horrible but it is in the past and most of those involved are no longer alive. Atrocities have happened lots of places and people move on, not because they accept it or because they like people of that religious or ethnic group, but because it has already happened and the perpetrators are long dead.

The reason people refer to it and the reason people are highlighting Israel’s actions in 1948 rather than Pakistan’s in 1947 is that throughout Israel’s existence the land grabs have continued, the displacement, the murder, violence and segregation! Jewish people are actively encouraged to move to the West Bank and settle in houses owned by Palestinians and have murdered Palestinians and burned down their homes as IOF (it is an occupation force there) soldiers look on. In Israel a Jewish American or Ukrainian that moves to Israel has higher status than a Muslim or Christian that has been born there. It is an unequal society.

In Ireland and the rest of the world we rarely talk about the atrocities committed by British soldiers and the Black and Tans against the Irish because it is in the past and no longer happens, you can’t blame the living for the actions of their ancestors. If they had continued to happen we would shouting it from the rooftops and highlighting how long it had been going on. If Israel wants people to stop criticising it there is a simple answer - stop committing war crimes, stop stealing land and get your troops out of other countries territories!

I wonder what Pakistan would have done if several surrounding countries had waged war on it at it's inception, or constantly attacked it with insurgents and suicide bombers. Or what Eire would have done for that matter. If people who resented the existence of the country and targeted Pakistani or Irish olympic teams or citizens abroad because their country existed.

Do Pakistan or Eire have bomb shelters in every home, or an iron dome missile defence system. I'm not sure your explanation explains all.

Eire! I really thought the days when
English people called us Eire were dead and gone.

You cannot seriously be drawing a comparison between the establishments of Israel and Ireland?

Israel was created by newcomers to the land who set up a country on a land that was populated by other people.

Southern Ireland was returned to the people who had lived on the land for millennia, continuously.

The rightful comparison is between the Irish and the Palestinians which is why there is a lot of support in Ireland for the Palestinian cause.

The comparison doesn't work, Partition took place in India after Britain as the Colonial power adopted a policy of "divide and rule" and deliberately stoked up religious tensions between Hindus and Muslims to prevent them fighting together as they did in 1857 in a revolt against the British. Partition was bloody and brutal but was essentially a fight between the "same people" who had been living on the "same land" for centuries.

Whereas in Palestine it was colonialism: land given away without the Palestinians consent to Europeans who in 1947 owned less than 7% of the land. To make it worse Palestinians took in and housed WW2 refugees (ironically at a time where many countries had turned away fleeing refugees https://www.nationalww2museum.org/war/articles/war-refugee-board ) and were repaid with the Nakba.

Eire? Well I’ve heard it all now.

Seriously?

Same. It's pretty jarring to see tbh. Ireland was right there in the post they quoted which makes me think it was rather pointed.

It really is astonishing how the aggressors have painted themselves as the victims isn’t it? It’s the ultimate spin. I was brought up believing that Palestinians were terrorists. It’s incredible, the power of propaganda.

Then you continue to displace people and rob their houses and lands, generation after generation, and you sob “why do they keep attacking me. Ever think the issue might be the stealing, displacement and murder thing that is creating terrorists?

Who is "you"? Who on this thread has displaced anyone?

And vicims of mass terror attacks have every right to "sob". What a disgusting comment.

Anyone ?

It depends whom you mean by anti Zionists. Those people you refer to may not all have the same views. There is confusion around the meaning.

Do you consider anyone who -

thinks those in the Israeli government who refer to ‘Judaea and Sumaria’, and who say
the land from the river to the sea belongs to Jews because God promised it to them,
are wrong, and guilty of all sorts of abuses towards Palestinians even before Oct 7 -

to be an anti-Zionist, and comparable to Hitler?

If you don't believe that the Jewish people should have a state of their own, that in itself is anti Semitic, not just ant iZionist, in my opinion. Most Jewish people do relate to the state of Israel even if they disagree with the Israeli government, just as many Brits disagree with our government actions, etc.

It is only antisemitic if the person isn’t also anti-theocracy and anti-ethnonationalism.

A Jewish state is like any other state that is ruled by a religious leader rather than a secular one. Iran is a theocracy. The Vatican is a theocracy. History has had many theocracies. I’m not for theocracies, I think we should all have freedom of religion and not be denied citizenship or rights based on our religion,

There are also elements of ethno-nationalism in a Jewish state where one ethnicity is superior to another. We see that in white nationalist movements for example. I’m against ethnonationalism as well. I don’t think that a state that practices apartheid on the basis of ethnicity is something to applaud.

A state that bases its laws on ethnicity and/or religion rather than equality and liberty for all is not a good state regardless of the ethnicity or religion being promoted as the state religion or the preferred ethnicity. Israel is one such state. As is Iran and the Vatican.

The solution is reform of these states, not their erasure. Israel can be a Jewish majority country like other countries are majority Christian, Muslim, Hindu, etc. That is what Israel should be, but isn’t. The founding principles require the displacement and subjugation of anyone not Jewish as either a second class citizen or a noncitizen subhuman. The ICJ has ruled Israel is an apartheid state, so this isn’t my opinion this is the ruling of the top legal experts in the world that anyone not Jewish in Israel has limited rights, if any, and that it is not a functioning democracy with the principle of equal rights for all.

Israel can be a Jewish majority country like other countries are majority Christian, Muslim, Hindu, etc.

The problem though is that Israel won’t be a Jewish majority state if the Palestinians are treated fairly in their own land, given the rights to live where their grandparents lived, given equal space, access and right to vote.

It will be the end of the only Jewish state in the world. And so, the existence of a state for Jews (a good thing) relies on the subjugation of the native population (bad thing).

Your stance will always depend on whether you think the former is worth the latter.

Looks like all is not well in the country

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cly580gkd9ro

I wonder how many English conscripts in WW2 could have got away with "We are doing our bit for the war. We're praying" ?

I thought Zionism was the belief that the Jewish people have a right to a homeland of their own- but specifically in the place where it is right now- Zion.
For me, antizionism doesn't have to be antisemitic because there are a very few niche reasons why some people believe they shouldn't be there at all, for example the ultra orthodox.
But, its most often coupled with beliefs that definitely betray antisemitism, the denial of Jewish history in the region, saying they have no right to be there, comparing the oppression of Palestinians to the Holocaust etc.
I think its possible to be a Zionist and also to believe Palestinians have just as much rights as Israelis to a homeland in that area... I dont see Zionism as being mutually exclusive to support for a Palestinian state. I believe in both.
As always the difficult bit is Where and How.

I think there's quite a bit of ambiguity in what is meant by anti-zionist. You could want to see Israel destroyed as a state, and the Jewish population subjugated, killed or repatriated. That's probably what Hamas and Iran want, and it would have very little support in the UK.

Alternatively, you could mean 'everyone in historical Palestine should live in one state with full citizenship and voting rights, regardless of ethnicity or religion'. This is also anti-zionist as it would mean Israel wasn't primarily a Jewish state anymore. However, you'd probably find plenty of British people who supported this.

A third view is that you support a two-state solution, one country for Israelis and one for Palestinians. You oppose Israeli expansion into the West Bank and Gaza. However, this could also be seen as anti-zionist as some Zionists believe the whole area needs to become a Jewish homeland and that expansion is necessary. Support for a two state solution is very mainstream in the UK.

Scenario 3 is quite different from scenario 1, I'm sure you'll agree.

You explained this so well, thank you.

I think its possible to be a Zionist and also to believe Palestinians have just as much rights as Israelis to a homeland in that area... I dont see Zionism as being mutually exclusive to support for a Palestinian state. I believe in both.

@dairydebris this is roughly where I would land too. I don't know what I would call my beliefs but I would believe that Jewish people should be able to settle in Israel as their homeland but not expand borders or control Palestinians rights.

Yes, thank you. I’ve been struggling to find any clarity on how Zionism can be defined. This really does help.
I don’t see how anyone can be proud whatever the view.

To take away the only legitimate country that is predominantly ethnically Jewish is unthinkable for most Jews and, indeed, for many non Jews. To equate all Jewish people with disagreeing to a homeland for Palestinians is just plain wrong.

There are as many Palestinians (probably more aka Hamas) and other Arab nationalities (e.g. Iran) who wish to rid the whole of Israel of its Jews. That is a fact. Yesterday there was a report that teachers in schools in one American state had sent out maps where the whole of Israel had been renamed Palestine.

The people who were living on the land in 1948 included Muslims, Jews, Christians and Druze. The current population includes the same denominations of which 73% is Jewish, 18% Muslim (excluding those in Gaza and the West Bank) 1.9% Christian 1.6% Druze and 4.8% unclassified. All denominations are free to vote in elections and sit in the Knesset (Israel's Parliament). Jews and Muslims worked alongside each other in harmony, at least until 7 October.

Why is this meant for me in particular? My reply was to thank ScholesPanda. I think their 3 scenarios explain the ambiguities of the term anti Zionist very well.