How can anyone be proud to be anti Zionist

[mids2019]

https://www.meforum.org/hitler-antizionism

Hitler was an anti Zionist and instigated the most heinous genocide in world history. A genocide so systematic if caused the world to reflect on itself. Hamas are anti Zionist and produced the worst terrorist massacre per head in history. The September 11th attackers had an anti Zionist agenda. Iran is openly anti Zionist and was prepared to develop a nuclear weapon to reduce Israel to ashes.

We now have Zara Sultana, an MP in this country now claiming to be an anti Zionist? How low can we go as far as racial hatred is concerned?Do these ideologues reflect on what they are actually saying?

Exactly - I had some really interesting conversations with a unionist friend where she accepted that I feel Northern Ireland should never have been created and would live a united Ireland (though not at the expense of peace) she told me she would also love a United Ireland with the Republic rejoining the UK. We both really disagreed with each other’s stance but respect that it does not mean either of us hates the other or questions ones right to live in Ireland or call themself Irish, we just have different viewpoints! She is such a lovely person but we don’t agree on that one issue.

When you study logic they teach you that just because two things share a characteristic it doesn’t mean they share all characteristics - for example as someone pointed out: Hitler was a vegetarian, Hitler was a mass murderer, therefore all vegetarians are mass murderers - this logic would give you a big fat 0 on any logic test. You can completely disagree with Zionism - Israel gained territory in 1948 through violence, rape and murder, there were multiple recorded massacres - watch Tantura! To disagree with a country being founded through violence, murder and displacement of the natives does show that a person is anti semitic, it shows they believe in human rights and equality.

I disagree with religion being at the heart of any country, I disagree with Israel and Iran and Saudi and all countries that mix government policies and legal issues with religious beliefs. I also disagree with any country that gives one group of people more rights than the other. To me the very idea of Zionism is inequality because one group is above all others and has more rights, one group is entitled to the land. This does not make me “like Hitler” it means I care about all human life.

Hitler was an anti zionist so he was a psychic was he?

The problem is when anti-semitism is expressed under the guise of anti-Zionism - a big problem on the far left, and much of the moderate left now sadly. I doubt Corbyn and the like have a sophisticated understanding of different schools of Jewish thought.

If you’re just going to twist the meaning of Zionism to fit your assumptions then crack on.

I am Jewish.

I am not sure about your Jewishness. You write like you’ve never attended a weekly religion school or a Jewish day school. You might be a secular Jew. It would explain the complete lack of depth of knowledge about Zionism and your strange denial of the existence of anti Zionist Jews when we have had generations of vocal opposition to Zionism since the start of the movement to the present day.

I do think your post is anti-semitic though. Terrible acts are being done by some Israeli politicians. British politicians have also done terrible things. But we don't all get accused of being responsible for them.

I am bringing Zionism back to its basic meaning which is the belief in the existence of the state of Israel. I am not secular, I went to Jewish schools all my life and also through the whole youth movement, Jewish student politics etc etc so please don’t patronise me. I never said all Jews are zionists but that the vast majority are.

The problem is when anti-semitism is expressed under the guise of anti-Zionism

But then how would you distinguish between an anti-Zionist and an anti-Semite, if the two are always going to look the same?

What would make you look at a person and say “yes I can see they are not anti-Semitic, but they are just anti-Zionist”?

Well I object to my post being called anti semitic. And re your example, I would be anti British imperialism and any manifestation of it.

I don't think you were intentionally anti-semitic, but I think saying 'Zionism is a genocidal force' is wrong. It was not conceived of as a way to wipe out other nations. It's not the equivalent of being anti-British Imperialism, it's the equivalent of saying the idea we are a British state and should be here is inherently genocidal.

It’s because we all know that if things get too bad in the diaspora there’s one place in the world we can go where we won’t feel unwelcome

Israel is the least safe place to be a Jew right now.

OP’s point on Oct 7th being the worst terror attack per capita ever in history was spot on. And that’s not the only attack! Terror attacks happen almost daily in Israel and have done for generations.

Recent polls show that 25% of Israelis want to leave the country because they don’t feel safe. Especially amongst young Israelis who could be called up for reserve IDF duty.

I say we aren’t welcome because we are being murdered by terrorists just for being Jewish at a rate only exceeded by the Holocaust.

Since the Oct 7th massacre, there has been record emigration of Israelis leaving Israel.

I find this an odd response to my statement. If I said something like 'there is anti-black racism in the UK' I don't think you would respond by saying 'but how do you know which white people are racist and which aren't?' I mean, you don't always

Sorry but that is like saying being Jewish means you believe in one God.
You’ve dumbed it down so much, it has lost all context and meaning.

The other day an Israeli posted the same thing. And it got deleted. I never understood why such a thing would be deleted if it was the truth. Such is our world.

Yeah I think it's strange that people seem unaware of what is happening on their doorstep. I know people who refuse to call NI Northern Ireland and always refer to it as the North of Ireland. To use the terminology used around Israel they deny it's very existence. The right of NI to exist is questioned everyday, it's an accepted political viewpoint, the president of Ireland believes in a united Ireland so again to use the same terminology she believes that NI doesn't have the right to exist.

For some reason some people have a stronger reaction to people questioning whether a country 1000s of miles away has the right to exist in it's current form than they do with people questioning whether a part of the UK where they actually live has a right to exist in its current form, in fact it would seem that some aren't even aware that that happens.

Zionism emerged in the context of other 19th-century nationalist movements, and differences in Jewish theological thought across different groups. With increasing persecution of Eastern European and Russian Jews in the late 19th century the belief emerged that a place of refuge was needed. There are undoubtedly problems with nationalism - the way it alienates minorities being one, but these problems are pretty universal across nation states.

Things have obviously gone very wrong - the persecution and oppression of Arabs by the Israeli government has done nothing for Arabs (obviously) and nothing to make Jewish people safer either. But Zionism itself was not conceived of as being 'genocidal' and to say so given what Jews have been through is pretty offensive.

Well I am Irish, so I do have some problems with exactly what the definition of British territory is, and what exactly constitutes the British state. That doesn't mean I'm anti British though.

True, but Britons haven't been horrifically persecuted for 2000 years and almost wiped out by a genocide during WWII, so the sensitivities are different.

@singmoon I did think twice before writing that I thought the post was anti-semitic, I'm sure you personally are not anti-semitic, I just really believe the statement is wrong and often made out of ignorance

As noted in the article above, there are Zionists who were and some who still are eugenicists, racists, and generally horrible people, so I guess both sides are fucked and can't be proud (being proud either way seems odd to me).

Just because someone agrees with a horrible person on a specific point doesn't make them horrible solely by association. If it did, then there are a lot of things from abortion to the existence of nation-states at all that are all fucked to have a strong opinion on.

And yeah, it’s all just a massive coincidence that the one country anti Zionists think shouldn’t exist is the world’s one majority Jewish state

Do you think it's a massive coincidence that Zionists are only focused on the state of Israel existing where it does? That they dismissed other locations that were suggested and openly let other Jewish people die to fulfil this specific ideal?

Zionism and Anti-Zionism are always only going to be about the Jewish state of Israel being in that area because that's what Zionism is, taking the name from that very contested hill in Jerusalem. The Jewish Autonomous Oblast in Russia doesn't fall under any Zionist debate and few care one way or the other about its existence other than the Jewish people there who've fought not to be merged with others.

And for those on the left who like to use the ‘anti colonialism’ argument against Israel, I’m waiting with bated breath for them to argue that Australia or New Zealand shouldn’t exist.

I can't speak of Australia or New Zealand; but I know people have been discussing that the US and Canada should be dismantled and shouldn't exist for decades. I find the argument relies on dismantling current corrupt power structures and giving the areas back to particular indigenous nations, and the latter tends to be where the argument falls apart.

There are also other countries around the world that people have argued shouldn't or don't really exist and a lot of contested territory. Israel isn't alone in that, not even alone in the major fucking up in the withdraw by colonial powers playing a role in modern issues.

I am bringing Zionism back to its basic meaning which is the belief in the existence of the state of Israel.

The basic meaning needs to include the existence of the state of Israel in that specific area. Since before the first before the First Zionist Congress, that was an essential component, along with developing a Jewish national consciousness. Even that is getting basic to the point of distortion, but at least it's recognising why it's contested even by those who are not against the existence of a majority Jewish state.

You raised the British example, I just responded.

Why is it an odd response? The last two years have seen many anti-zionists accused of being anti-semitic so it’s a valid question: how does one express anti-zionism without being anti-semitic? Is it possible? Are the two the same?

Well, it depends on the understanding of Zionism and what the motivation is. I believe there are valid anti-Zionist arguments, but I think the majority who say they are anti-Zionist are not aware of the history, and think that Zionism necessarily means wiping out the Arabs, which really isn't correct. If it did mean that, of course that would be wrong.

Of course, there are some 'Zionists' who do want to wipe out the Arabs, but they are minority extremists. Everywhere has its psychopaths and racists.

What are valid anti-Zionist arguments in your opinion?

Personally, as a 'zionism ambivalent' Jew, shall we say, I'd say there are massive problems with the way Israel is governed, that Netanyahu is a war criminal and his government has committed genocide.

But arguing about the existence of Israel is kind of moot because it does exist, and whatever the wrongs of its founding, this is not the fault of every Jew who lives there now and replacing a disaster for Palestinians (which I reluctantly have to agree Israel has been), with a disaster for Israeli Jews and the diaspora ( eg somehow disestablishing Israel) is not an answer to anything. The best we will ever be able to do is a compromise and one that involves giving the Palestinian people a stake in Israel too.

In many ways, Israel is a miracle - a dynamic, cultured, innovative country conjoured out of the desert BUT, I have to wonder how much of that is on the back of cheap Palestinian labour. Some governors of Israel believed you have to strike and strike and strike at the Palestinian people until they give up and go somewhere else, and not only is that unlikely it is of course utterly inhumane. The best solution to my mind is to create a state where the Palestinians have better lives and can't be drawn as easily into hate and revenge, but Hamas and Netanyahu between them have made that an impossibility, I fear.

Does this make me a Zionist? An anti Zionist? As I say I'm not sure either side would have me.