UEFA have finally taken a stand

[LifeOfAShowGirl]

https://x.com/uefa/status/1955706670824235327?s=46

A mild, late, spineless stand. But a stand. It makes me wonder how much longer this can go on before governments realise people are fed up of this.

Detainees.
And if you prefer- illegal detainees.

The Palestinian detainees, illegal or other, are not hostages. Some have been convicted of serious crimes, murder, terrorism. Some have been held without charge for an indefinite amount of time. And everything in between. Still, they are not hostages. Calling these detainees 'hostages' falsely equates them to the Hamas hostages.

Again. What Israel is doing is bad enough without twisting the truth into something worse. Words matter. Please let's just stick to the truth.

I'd say that exceptionalizing Palestinian childhood as quantum tried to do, they aren't like 'us', 'childhood' is different there, is trying to excuse their detainment, torture and sexual assault. I can think of no other reason quantum decided to hop on board and impart this wisdom on us other than trying to excuse it. Weird behaviour if you ask me.

What would you say are the main differences between people who are taken off the street, held illegally without charge and who are being starved, tortured, sexually assaulted and kept without their consent for an indeterminate amount of time and the 20 members of the military being held illegally as hostages and treated the same by Hamas?

Why do you see it as a bad thing to equivalate people who are going through very similar things in the same area?

The prisoners are being held for alleged crimes, we can argue til the cows come if you think that is justifed but that is why they are detained or for administrative issues.

They aren't being held as bargaining chips. That's the difference between a detainee and a hostage you see.

Granted they have now exchanged prisoners for hostages but that was not the reason they were arrested in the first place.

Because you're grouping a whole load of people with entirely different situations into one, inappropriate category. We dont know the individual stories of each Palestinian detainee. Like I said, some have commited awful crimes and caused Israeli civilian deaths. Some are murderers. Some are children. Some are guilty. Some are also no doubt innocent. You cant put them all into the same category.

The Hamas taken hostages are all innocent. They are not suspected of, or charged with any crime. They were people simply getting on with their lives before they were taken.

They are not equivalent.

I see it as a bad thing to draw equivalence because its not the truth. The truth is more complex.

You harm your own arguments against Israel's actions when you mis characterize them. You also falsely build more hatred.

They are detainees, and possibly illegal detainees. They are not hostages.

But they aren't being held for alleged crimes that's the whole point. There are no charges against them. They are just being held for indertiminate reasons for an indeterminate amount of time.

Twenty-one of those for instance are healthcare workers including senior consultants who have been held for more than 400 days. HWW said none had been charged with any crimes by the Israeli authorities. 400 days of being tortured, starved, beaten, not knowing if they are going to ever see their families again. 400 days that they could have been charged with something, anything but they haven't. There are no alleged crimes. There is nothing at all but healthcare workers taken mostly from their places of work and abused for over 400 days. I see no reason at all not to draw equivalance with the 20 Israeli soldiers who were taken from their work, held and abused.

This feels like wading through treacle.

I"ve attached a link below. The last batch of Pals released by Israel included men found guilty of murder, manslaughter, for involvement in suicide bombings that killed civilians in peacetime etc etc.

How on earth can you equate that to the taking of completely innocent hostages? Its not the same. Its deeply offensive to suggest its the same.

Apols- here's the link.

https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinian-prisoner-release-hamas-ceasefire-hostage-3a20774bb4b519e852273ec559687b3b

Yes it is quite bizarre. A pp says there's no point comparing it to our justice system then does just that and also decides a detainee is the same thing as a hostage .

It is not the same thing! As I've said hostages are innocent people taken purely as a bargaining tool.

It's like some posters really believe that murderers and terrorists are just misunderstood like that journalist targeted last week. Nothing to do with hamas oh nooo despite plenty of evidence to the contrary.

Agree.

Im starting to feel that its absolutely pointless to be on here. Im actually of the opinion that the current Israeli actions are getting increasingly indefensible, but its almost impossible to have a conversation with anyone about it for being too busy batting away outright lies, misinformation and strawman arguments.

Detainees are not hostages. Its so basic.

We could be having an indepth about the administrative detention being practiced by Israel which is really quite bad enough and a conversation worth having, but instead we're tied up in whether people found guilty of terrorist offenses against civilians are the same as hostages taken on 7 October. Its mind bending. Thats just one example.

It concerns me because truth really does matter. If we lose sight of actual, objective truth then we'll never have common ground from which to talk. If we can't even manage it here, what does that say about the future for both sides?

The 1000s of people held on administrative detention are clearly the people I am talking about when I say that they haven't been charged. They are the people that posters are referring to when they speak of Palestinian hostages. I'm not sure why you are pretending to be obtuse.

It's pretty easy to compare the taking of medical professionals who are charged with absolutely nothing from their workplace with the taking of soldiers who are charged with absolutey nothing from their workplace. If of course you see them both as equal people.

I know what you mean @dairydebris truth does matter!

Sometimes it feels like so few people on this board are interested in the truth though. I am and I admire anyone that can admit they are conflicted re the actions of the "side" they support because really, it's dishonest to pretend either side is blameless. But it's hard to have an honest conversation on here because people would use what you say against you (like being arrested!)

Of course detainees are not hostages, even illegal detainees are not. The words have different meanings.

It's not pointless you being on here, not at all. But if you need to take a break, that's understandable too x

Fgs.

Administrative detention is not ok.

Taking hostages is not ok.

They are different though.

Is this clear?

I agree, the terminology does matter.

Unfortunately among the detainees are hundreds of children.

Holding anyone, but particularly children, without charge is hugely, hugely problematic, totally agree.

.

Agree Gladioli it’s quite a simple concept once we allow ourselves to appreciate that all people are equal

Those taken without reason or charge are the same. Wherever they are from.

Meanwhile delighted to see UEFAs stand and amazing to see so many more do so too.

Stop killing children
Stop killing civilians

Please don’t think the majority of British women think like this. These thoughts are a disgrace to the majority of the population.
As they should be

What a horrid image

The Palestinians being detained by Israel have been taken because they are suspected of something. Some have been convicted of awful crimes. Some have been suspected only of minor crimes or involvement. Some have been charged and found guilty. Some have never been charged let alone found guilty. They are not a homogeneous group.

The hostages who have been taken by Hamas are all completely innocent. They are not suspected or charged with any crime, never will be, and they are being held as bargaining chips.

These 2 groups are not the same.

The Palestinians being detained by Israel have been taken because they are suspected of something.

Have they? Where is your proof of that? There is nothing at all to suggest that the 1000s of people held without charge are suspected of anything at all. Being held with no charges at all against you for more than 40pdays would indicate to most people that it is quite the opposite, that there is nothing at all that they can find to charge them with and the bar is low for Israel. I find it quite dark that you insist on casting shadows over these people who are being tortured, sexually assaulted and starved without any evidence at all.

Think what you like
I really don’t care

All innocents are equal

Detaining without charge is of course questionable depending on the circumstances but it doesn't make them hostages.

We all know that.

It kind of does.