UEFA have finally taken a stand

[LifeOfAShowGirl]

https://x.com/uefa/status/1955706670824235327?s=46

A mild, late, spineless stand. But a stand. It makes me wonder how much longer this can go on before governments realise people are fed up of this.

'It kind of does'. Very informative.

Why don't you start a thread discussing the different judicial processes in the ME we could compare and compare and contrast, see how many do detain people without charge just for a bit of context? I bet many if not most do if they have reasons for doing so.

It isn't ok by our standards no.

What many if not most do not do is go into neighbouring territories, kidnap hundreds of innocent men, women and children then starve and torture them in their underground tunnels using them as bargaining tools.

I find it utterly bizarre that you keep insisting a nameless group of people that you dont know of, know nothing about, know nothing of their stories, what they've done, what they believe- yet youre sure these thousands of people are not only completely innocent but are also being tortured. Its almost as if youre writing their stories for them, to fit into your simple narrative of 'Israel bad, Palestinians victims'.

For the last time. Some will be guilty. Some will be innocent. Some will definitely be charged at some point ( id imagine Israeli courts are quite busy at the moment ), some may never be charged and this is a terrible situation to be in. Its Guantanamo Bay. Its a terrible abuse of human rights.

However. To draw an equivalence between the hostages taken on 7 October is just factually incorrect. Those people were taken under no suspicion at all. They have ALL done nothing wrong. They are being used as bargaining chips by terrorists. Lots of them have been actually murdered, and they must know that their fate could be similar at any given moment.

All youre betraying with you continued insistence is your completely divorced from reality views on Israel. And your ignorance on how the world works.

Im not coming back to comment further on this matter. I think youre beyond changing your mind or admitting youre wrong on this subject. I just hope others who are following this ridiculous thread can see what I'm saying.

Bring all the hostages home. What they have endured is unimaginable, unforgivable.

Israel also should end its policy of failing to charge detainees. The moral argument to do so is irrefutable.

Such a long post yet you didn't answer my question. You accuse me of writing their narrative when you are the one insisting that all Palestinians being held, for sometimes years, are suspected of something with no evidence at all to back up your claims. That reads as you trying to legitimise their captivity, which is imo defending the indefensible, again.

Well of course they’re suspected of something, even if the IDF are wrong to detain them. They don’t detain every Gazan they see so logically the ones they detain are the ones they think have done something wrong. Even it’s a relatively minor thing like throwing stones, even if the person being detained is in fact innocent. They may be wrong in holding them but they must have a reason in their own minds.

We’re not trying to defend the indefensible. It’s not right to hold people without charge and it’s not right to hold minors.

But it’s common sense to say they are suspected of something. Though impossible to prove as most common sense things are because it’s just obvious.

How long do you think you are going to get away with accusing individual posters of certain motivations because unlike you, they are not prepared to throw away common sense and intellect in order to try and " win" debates?

So shallow is your faith in your own stand, you make up narratives then accuse others of doing the same because their correct definition of things appear to be too banal for the dramatic, yet monochrome prism through which your vision of even words are viewed.

Instead of accusing posters of malignant motivations, what are YOUR motivations for posting?
Is it to police the CITME threads, to make sure no shard of sunlight penetrates your bargain bucket Maoist thought speak?

Or is your stand so fragile that even world recognised thought and definitions of words and simple dynamics , the action/ reaction equation have to be rewritten as if Foucault himself had instructed you to break down what is commonly understood?

And just for the sake of doing so, whilst claiming moral superiority, whilst doing your level best to try and distress people who do not see your chaoticly refined circularity coming.

It's not that you care, is it? To care takes effort. You just need to seem better than those who do care, but do not have the pathology of force teaming themselves with a paranoid finger pointing hall monitor persona.

You do know it's 2025 and not Year Zero?
And that the word is Pravda, not Prada?

It really isn't when you look at the behaviour of the IDF not just over the past 2 years but for decades.20% of Palestinians, 40% of Palestinian men have been detained by Israel at some point in their life. It's a systemic practice used to fragment families and communities and exert control. It's a practice that has long been documented by human rights groups.

Yes it is obvious that the IDF suspect them of something even if they are wrong as said before, even if they are paranoid about male Palestinians in particular.

No one is trying to legitimise the amount of Palestinians that the IDF detain without proper process being followed but to imply they do it with zero suspicions towards the detainees is a nonsense argument.

As is often the case, you don’t need to exaggerate. The truth is bad enough.

Again, no. Israel uses arrest and detention as a tool to convince the Palestinians to either stay quiet or move out or live in segregated areas. This is very common to apartheid regimes. They are often unlawfully seized and detained, although they are uninvolved civilians. They are used by Israel to compel the Palestinians as a whole to act in a given way or to refrain from acting. The ultimate goal is to curb the possibility for the Palestinians to resist.

That sounds like your opinion not fact. Facts are objective and can be proven but you are providing no evidence that Israel are picking people at random and with no suspicions towards them.

Others hold a different opinion which is that Israel hold people without charging them but not without suspicion.

Don’t think they have any answers to that @EasyTouch

@EasyTouch

I particularly enjoyed this bit-

"Or is your stand so fragile that even world recognised thought and definitions of words and simple dynamics , the action/ reaction equation have to be rewritten as if Foucault himself had instructed you to break down what is commonly understood?"

Savage.

Well that's exactly why I asked daisy before she announced her exit to provide evidence for her claim that all Palestinians detained are suspected of something. There is no evidence at all to suggest that they are.

That's why I chose to listen UN Special Rapporteurs, people who are independent human rights experts, on this topic rather than pro Israel posters on mumsnet. They agree that Israel systemically detains Palestinians as a means of control.

Don't worry, I thanked her post to show her that I appreciate her telling me how much I live in her head rent free.

Omg the arrogance 😂

Opinions will differ... thanks for giving me a laugh though with thinking you live in EasyTouch's head rent free.

So eloquent and the response is a soundbite about living rent free in their head 😂

What like this 'expert' https://www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-east/hamas-political-force-won-democratic-elections-un-special-rapporteur/3662674#

We mustn't think badly of hamas! 'they are democratically elected leaders' and “when you think of Hamas, you should not necessarily think of people slitting throats, heavily armed or fighters. That is not the case.”

Yeah great 'experts' that you listen to there .

While most pro Pals are busy trying to separate the civilians of Gaza from their terrorist leadership by pointing out that there haven't been elections since 2006, here is Francesca Albanese going out of her way to link them together.

Even describing those elections as “the most democratic elections (in Palestine)” which if true, must be an incredibly low bar.

From Save the Children in 2024:

“Jason Lee, Save the Children’s Country Director in the occupied Palestinian territory said:

“What we know about how these children are being treated is unacceptable, but what we don’t know could be even worse. The government of Israel’s blanket secrecy has left hundreds of families across Gaza and the occupied West Bank completely in the dark, unaware of where their children are, whether they are safe and the conditions and treatment that they are being subjected to.

“There’s no justification for beating and stripping children, dehumanising and terrorising them. The abuse of Palestinian children in military detention was a child protection crisis before 7 October, and it has only become worse. With the world’s focus understandably on the unparalleled horrors children are facing in Gaza, we must not let abuse of children in the West Bank go unnoticed. There must be an end to this abusive military detention system and a definitive ceasefire now.”

In December, reports emerged of Palestinian boys as young as 15 being detained, stripped and moved from a school in Gaza to unknown locations.”

https://www.savethechildren.org.uk/news/media-centre/press-releases/2024/palestinian-children-in-israeli-military-detention-report-increasingly-violent-conditions-

Is it? I've never even seen that poster before and here they are typing out an essay dedicated to me. It reminds me of the time a poster on this board was so obsessed with me they changed their username to be a letter off mine, maybe they are the same poster who knows. I mean it's flattering of course but not something I want to encourage, we've all seen the obsession with and doxxing that has been done to people who speak out for Palestinians.

For the deniers - there are documentaries, various reports by lots of different human rights organisations, interviews with traumatised children who suffered abuse!

May 2023 from Defence for Children:

https://defenceforchildren.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/Arbitrary_by_Default_Palestine_Report.pdf

July 2024, UN report:

https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/07/un-report-palestinian-detainees-held-arbitrarily-and-secretly-subjected

BBC December 2023:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67600015

Time Magazine December 2023:
https://time.com/6548068/palestinian-children-israeli-prison-arrested/

Euro-med Human Rights Monitor 2014:
https://euromedmonitor.org/uploads/reports/Child-Palestine.pdf

Human Rights Watch 2015:
https://www.hrw.org/news/2015/07/19/israel-security-forces-abuse-palestinian-children

I don’t how to break it to you but their post “dedicated” to you is just how they speak.

I think you’re safe on MN from being obsessed over.

Btw there’s another Twiglets on Mumsnet but they’ve never accused me of being obsessed by them.

'For the deniers'

The discussion hasn't been are there people destained without charge in other countries. The issue is how some say on here that this make them hostages. It doesn't.

What do you call it then when people are held without charge, to be exchanged when their demands are met?