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Conflict in the Middle East

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Israels plan for Gazas future

958 replies

MixedMetals · 07/07/2025 22:40

Defense Minister Israel Katz said Monday that he has instructed the IDF to prepare a plan to establish a "humanitarian city" on the ruins of Rafah, which would eventually house the entire population of the Gaza Strip.

According to Katz, the plan involves moving 600,000 Palestinians, primarily from the al-Muwasi area, into the new zone after security screening. Once inside, residents would not be allowed to leave, the defense minister said.

Katz added that, if conditions permit, construction of the "city" would begin during the 60-day Israel-Hamas cease-fire currently under negotiation.

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2025-07-07/ty-article/.premium/defense-minister-israel-to-concentrate-all-gaza-population-in-rafah-humanitarian-zone/00000197-e56a-d1ad-ab97-e5ef764e0000

Defense minister: Israel to concentrate all Gaza population in Rafah 'humanitarian' zone

***

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2025-07-07/ty-article/.premium/defense-minister-israel-to-concentrate-all-gaza-population-in-rafah-humanitarian-zone/00000197-e56a-d1ad-ab97-e5ef764e0000

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38
SharonEllis · 12/07/2025 08:21

veiledsentiments · 12/07/2025 08:06

I never think terrorism is justified. However, I don’t think Israel has been the lilly white country that you wish to portray them as. Always the victim, never the aggressor. Simply not true. I think that a lot of Israelis, in Israel harbour a deep contempt for its Palestinian neighbours. Is that not equally as Islamaphobic and racist? For over 80 years it has been the same old thing. Just defeat the Palestinians, just eliminate Hamas, just destroy Iran’s nuclear capabilities. Under the command of a genocidal government I think Israel is digging itself deeper into difficulties.I think many in Israel now face the fear of security anxiety, and fear of annihilation. And therefore they believe they now have the right to do that to Palestine first.

Its hard to know who this is addressed to. It can't be me because I have never portrayed Israel as 'lilly white'. What a strange idea - do you mean perfect? Israel is an extraordinary place but perfect? Why would Israel be perfect? A survivor in the face of extreme hatred and a haven for the Jewish people The only democracy in the Middle East. The only place in the ME where being gay is not punishable by death, one of the few places in the ME where women's rights to travel and other freedoms are not restricted by male guardianship laws . Constantly under threat from its neighbours. Do you realise how hard it is to maintain democratic freedoms when under attack? All countries, the UK included suspend civilian/peace time freedoms when at war. It is impossible to be perfect. And yet for some reason Israel, the only nation in the world that is expected to be perfect.

SharonEllis · 12/07/2025 08:24

veiledsentiments · 12/07/2025 08:18

@SharonEllis . See above.

Im still waiting for the answer to my question. Why is Hamas no longer a threat to Israel?

veiledsentiments · 12/07/2025 08:24

SharonEllis · 12/07/2025 08:21

Its hard to know who this is addressed to. It can't be me because I have never portrayed Israel as 'lilly white'. What a strange idea - do you mean perfect? Israel is an extraordinary place but perfect? Why would Israel be perfect? A survivor in the face of extreme hatred and a haven for the Jewish people The only democracy in the Middle East. The only place in the ME where being gay is not punishable by death, one of the few places in the ME where women's rights to travel and other freedoms are not restricted by male guardianship laws . Constantly under threat from its neighbours. Do you realise how hard it is to maintain democratic freedoms when under attack? All countries, the UK included suspend civilian/peace time freedoms when at war. It is impossible to be perfect. And yet for some reason Israel, the only nation in the world that is expected to be perfect.

That’s my answer to your question. You don’t agree. Not much more to be said on the matter then is there? I’ll leave you all to it. Have a good weekend.

SharonEllis · 12/07/2025 08:29

Ok. I think we have established that @veiledsentiments does recognise that Hamas continues to be is a threat to Israel but that is ok. Israel still doesn't have the right to defend herself. She thinks that Israel is causing racists to be antisemitic around the world and the rise is antisemitism is Iarael's fault. And that she, in her own words 'can't be arsed'. I think that's all nice and clear. Do correct me if any of that is incorrect.

Twiglets1 · 12/07/2025 08:40

Martymcfly24 · 12/07/2025 02:13

Almost every building in some areas is booby trapped?

Can I ask the source of this information?

Nearly every building rigged: Hamas shifts tactics as north Gaza falls to IDF (article dated January 4th, 2025).

As its fighters attempt to flee northern Gaza and those that are remaining struggle to maneuver in the area, Hamas has pivoted its combat strategy to booby-trapping almost every structure that remains standing.

This military approach has become a threat to the IDF troops operating in the local combat zones.

Most terrorists are attempting to flee from Jabalya and the northern Gaza Strip to Gaza City.

The IDF has struck hundreds of them over the past week. However, the terrorists now operate by rigging traps in nearly every standing structure.

This is typically done by hiding explosives inside closets or other furniture to harm troops conducting searches. Additionally, the buildings are stocked with weapons, including rifles, anti-tank launchers, and grenades.

www.jpost.com/middle-east/article-836025

veiledsentiments · 12/07/2025 08:54

I’m not going to be bullied or intimidated by you @SharonEllis for not holding your narrative. But you missed out this bit, which I think is equally important:

that a lot of Israelis, in Israel harbour a deep contempt for its Palestinian neighbours. Is that not equally as Islamaphobic and racist?

SharonEllis · 12/07/2025 09:08

veiledsentiments · 12/07/2025 08:54

I’m not going to be bullied or intimidated by you @SharonEllis for not holding your narrative. But you missed out this bit, which I think is equally important:

that a lot of Israelis, in Israel harbour a deep contempt for its Palestinian neighbours. Is that not equally as Islamaphobic and racist?

Its not my narrative. I've asked you countless times but you won't answer, so all I can do is work out the answer to my questions.

Some Israelis, I am sure, are racist towards Palestinians. Of course. Others I think are tired of the constant attacks and do not trust the Palestinians. You may remember that many of those in the kibbutzim that were attacked on 7 October had worked closely with Palestinians. They used that knowledge in the attacks. Israelis are not universally brought up to hate Palestinians and celebrate their deaths in tbe way tjat such hate is institutionslised in Gaza schools or in the pay for slay system.

veiledsentiments · 12/07/2025 09:26

SharonEllis · 12/07/2025 09:08

Its not my narrative. I've asked you countless times but you won't answer, so all I can do is work out the answer to my questions.

Some Israelis, I am sure, are racist towards Palestinians. Of course. Others I think are tired of the constant attacks and do not trust the Palestinians. You may remember that many of those in the kibbutzim that were attacked on 7 October had worked closely with Palestinians. They used that knowledge in the attacks. Israelis are not universally brought up to hate Palestinians and celebrate their deaths in tbe way tjat such hate is institutionslised in Gaza schools or in the pay for slay system.

Really @SharonEllis?

In November, (2023) Israel’s public broadcaster, Kan, uploaded on its official X page a video of Israeli children singing a song celebrating their country’s ongoing genocide of Palestinians in Gaza. The broadcaster deleted the video clip after a huge online backlash….a closer look at Israeli literature and curricula shows this open celebration of genocide was the only natural outcome of Israel’s persistent indoctrination – or brainwashing to be more blunt – of its children to ensure that they do not view Palestinians as human and fully embrace apartheid and occupation.

Israeli state TV video shows children singing about Gaza

“Eliminate them all.” A video by Israel’s public broadcaster of children singing about Gaza has caused a backlash online

https://www.aljazeera.com/video/newsfeed/2023/11/21/israeli-state-tv-video-shows-children-singing-about-gaza

quantumbutterfly · 12/07/2025 09:30

Martymcfly24 · 12/07/2025 02:24

Yeah I looked there's not .That's why everyone is "blatantly ignoring" it

Only thing I found was an article about IDF soldiers dressing Palestinians in uniforms and using them as human shields in case there was a booby trap.

Sweet dreams.

Algorithms are tricksy things. When I Google 'hamas booby trap houses' I get a variety of articles. Some celebratory ones from Arab news outlets but other outlets are available.

Jumpupjumphigh · 12/07/2025 09:33

dairydebris · 10/07/2025 08:44

This is an extremely hard but illuminating read.

All of your arguments make perfect sense if you come from the position that Jewish people had / have no right to a homeland in the place they've continually inhabited for 1000's of years, where all their genetic roots stem from, all their history is based. The site of their greatest temple is underneath the Dome of the Rock fgs. If you think that all the land was the Arabs land, and the Jews should have been shipped off to an uninhabited island then yes I can see where youre coming from.

But in that case, youre advocating for back in 1948 the ethnic cleansing of the region of Jews, who most people agree while not in a majority were indeed indigenous to the end. And all this in the wake of the most well documented and atrocious actual genocide in history. It's a pretty shocking position and its jarring to read it put so eloquently.

And yet I specifically said: Some of the Palestinians were jews, and as far as I'm aware they were happy for all members of their society - muslim, jewish or Christian - to have land within it the same way they always had.

If you're going to read my posts as the opposite of what they say, then I don't know what to say.

ForgesOfEmpires · 12/07/2025 09:38

veiledsentiments · 12/07/2025 08:54

I’m not going to be bullied or intimidated by you @SharonEllis for not holding your narrative. But you missed out this bit, which I think is equally important:

that a lot of Israelis, in Israel harbour a deep contempt for its Palestinian neighbours. Is that not equally as Islamaphobic and racist?

There are over two million Palestinians living inside Israel. They are citizens. Nobody is rounding them up, attacking them, or driving them out. Meanwhile, if a Jew were to cross into Gaza on foot, they would almost certainly be kidnapped or killed. Gaza has been a no-go zone for Jews for nearly twenty years.

Islamophobia is prejudice, fear, or hatred directed at Islam or Muslims simply because of their religion or background.

Are you seriously here arguing that it's Islamophobia or racism to feel fear or resentment toward a population in a neighbouring territory that has openly promised your annihilation for decades, rewards its citizens financially for murdering you, and has launched thousands of attacks on your people?

Yes, there is Islamophobia among some Jews in Israel. It manifests in prejudice, hate speech, and occasional violence, particularly among extremist groups. But most Israeli Jews don’t want this, and many actively oppose it. Likewise there is antisemitism amongst the Muslim population. But the point is rather that Israel as a state is literally the only country on earth where Jews and Muslims live in a large number together, and Israel has the power to treat them as badly as Jews have been treated in the 22 Arab states but they choose not to.

Despite decades of conflict and unimaginable levels of antisemitism throughout the global Muslim world, they do not choose to target their Muslim population.

If someone denies Jewish people the right to self-defence or fear in response to real, repeated attacks, that holds Jews to a different standard than anyone else. That’s double standards, which is a core example of antisemitism under the IHRA definition.

If someone accuses Israelis collectively of Islamophobia while ignoring or excusing threats against them, they’re reversing the victim and aggressor roles, which is a common antisemitic tactic.

If someone refuses to acknowledge the reality of open threats, rocket attacks, incitement to genocide, or pay-for-slay policies—and still paints Israelis as the irrational aggressors or racists —it’s not criticism, it’s malicious framing.

I've got no idea how you get yourself into these positions, but it's really frustrating. I'd say the Israelis are not perfect but they do a really good job of trying to create peaceful coexistence within their borders, they do a really good job of trying to model a society of equality and not a single one of the 22 Arab nations offered them the same.

veiledsentiments · 12/07/2025 09:45

@ForgesOfEmpires

See above. I don’t think that’s a very good example of trying to create a peaceful coexistence with their neighbours. How do you come to that conclusion?

veiledsentiments · 12/07/2025 09:49

@ForgesOfEmpires Or this?

At least 350 Palestinians have been injured by Israeli settlers since January 2025. The settlers are accompanied by Israeli soldiers, who detain Palestinians trying to defend themselves or their homes from the attacks, and that is why human rights organisations say settler violence is state violence.

ForgesOfEmpires · 12/07/2025 09:57

veiledsentiments · 12/07/2025 09:45

@ForgesOfEmpires

See above. I don’t think that’s a very good example of trying to create a peaceful coexistence with their neighbours. How do you come to that conclusion?

Fairly easily.

Israel is the only country in the Middle East where Jews and Muslims live under the same legal system with equal citizenship rights. Muslims in Israel are full citizens. They vote in national elections, serve in parliament (the Knesset), hold positions as judges—including on the Supreme Court—and work across all sectors, including as doctors, lawyers, professors, and senior police and military officers. State services are provided in Arabic, and Muslim citizens have full freedom of religion. Mosques operate freely, Islamic courts handle personal status matters, and Muslim religious endowments are managed by the Muslim community.

Muslim citizens of Israel have access to universal healthcare, education, welfare, and social security, just like Jewish citizens. Arab students make up over 20 percent of Israel’s university population. The government has allocated billions in targetedevelopment to close economic gaps, improve infrastructure, and expand access to housing and employment in Arab communities.

NGOs and others work alongside government ministries to promote Jewish-Arab cooperation and integration. i know first-hand, part of my day job as an ID consultant is researching and preparing briefs on this. Mixed cities like Haifa, Acre, and Jaffa host joint schools, hospitals, and coexistence programs. Civil society in Israel is robust, and Muslim citizens participate fully in it.

No Jews live in Gaza. The elected government, Hamas, have a founding charter explicitly calling for the murder of Jews, not just Israelis, and quotes antisemitic text and ideas. Any Jew entering Gaza before this war, whether civilian or not, would face immediate risk of abduction or death. This is not theoretical—it has happened before and remains a standing threat.

Palestinians who murder Jewish civilians are financially rewarded. Terrorists are glorified in Palestinian Authority and Hamas-run media and textbooks. Children are taught that killing Jews is heroic. This is not a distortion—it is documented in school materials and official statements, and confirmed by EU-funded textbook reviews and reports by IMPACT-se, UN agencies, PMW.

Widen the lens, and the contrast becomes even more stark. Of the 22 Arab states, almost none have meaningful Jewish populations today although 80 yrs ago early one million Jews lived in Arab countries across the Middle East and North Africa. Jews in those countries were stripped of citizenship, had their assets seized, and were either expelled or forced to flee under threat. No Arab country has a Jewish member of parliament. No Arab state funds Jewish schools, allows independent Jewish religious courts, or protects freedom of Jewish religious practice in the way Israel protects Muslim practice.

So while critics accuse Israel of being a racist state, the facts tell a very different story. Israel is the only country in the region that has integrated a large Muslim minority into every level of public life, including its judiciary, academia, and political system.

Meanwhile, Gaza is openly antisemitic in its laws, governance, and rhetoric. And the broader Arab world has, with few exceptions, erased its Jewish communities entirely.

One system promotes coexistence under law. The others have either eliminated their Jewish populations or remain openly hostile to their existence. There is no comparison.

veiledsentiments · 12/07/2025 10:02

@SharonEllis or in the pay for slay system.

The PA government has claimed it does not make payments to families of prisoners belonging to Hamas or Islamic Jihad.[10]

Palestinian Authority Martyrs Fund - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Authority_Martyrs_Fund#cite_note-PLOStipendsRestored-10

Tooblondetooyoung · 12/07/2025 10:37

SharonEllis · 12/07/2025 08:21

Its hard to know who this is addressed to. It can't be me because I have never portrayed Israel as 'lilly white'. What a strange idea - do you mean perfect? Israel is an extraordinary place but perfect? Why would Israel be perfect? A survivor in the face of extreme hatred and a haven for the Jewish people The only democracy in the Middle East. The only place in the ME where being gay is not punishable by death, one of the few places in the ME where women's rights to travel and other freedoms are not restricted by male guardianship laws . Constantly under threat from its neighbours. Do you realise how hard it is to maintain democratic freedoms when under attack? All countries, the UK included suspend civilian/peace time freedoms when at war. It is impossible to be perfect. And yet for some reason Israel, the only nation in the world that is expected to be perfect.

Just coming back on some misinformation here...

The only place in the ME where being gay is not punishable by death
Except for Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Oman, Kuwait, Palestine (both Gaza and West Bank), Bahrain.

Granted many of these. It's still illegal and would result in a substantial prison sentence, but death penalty is not on their books. There are some other countries where it's legal, including the West Bank, Bahrain, Jordan. Even in those countries, it's going to be a very tough place to be a, but your statement that Israel is the only place in the middle East for being gay is not punishable by death is demonstrably completely and utterly wrong.

Israel is not expected to be 'perfect'. It's expected to not commit war crimes. It's expected not to commit war crimes. It's expected not to commit genocide. It's a pretty low bar we are setting here and they are failing miserably at that. Israel is the only country that is given a free pass for these things.

veiledsentiments · 12/07/2025 10:52

In light of the topic, here is some better news:

Majority of Israelis appalled by plan to displace Gaza population to Rafah

Israeli political analyst Akiva Eldar said the majority of Israelis are “really appalled” by the plan to displace the entire Palestinian population of Gaza to the rubble of Rafah, which would be “illegal and immoral”.

BelleHathor · 12/07/2025 10:55

Tooblondetooyoung · 12/07/2025 10:37

Just coming back on some misinformation here...

The only place in the ME where being gay is not punishable by death
Except for Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Oman, Kuwait, Palestine (both Gaza and West Bank), Bahrain.

Granted many of these. It's still illegal and would result in a substantial prison sentence, but death penalty is not on their books. There are some other countries where it's legal, including the West Bank, Bahrain, Jordan. Even in those countries, it's going to be a very tough place to be a, but your statement that Israel is the only place in the middle East for being gay is not punishable by death is demonstrably completely and utterly wrong.

Israel is not expected to be 'perfect'. It's expected to not commit war crimes. It's expected not to commit war crimes. It's expected not to commit genocide. It's a pretty low bar we are setting here and they are failing miserably at that. Israel is the only country that is given a free pass for these things.

Agree, also remember that there have been reports of Gay Palestinians being blackmailed and threatened with exposure if they do not act as informants.
https://mondoweiss.net/2014/09/blackmails-palestinian-informants/

https://qantara.de/en/artikel/pal%C3%A4stinensisches-kino-dima-hamdan-blood-like-water

Israel surveils and blackmails gay Palestinians to make them informants

And you thought it was a gay mecca? Testimony from intelligence reservists who reject occupation says Israel routinely surveils Palestinians’ sexuality with aim of blackmailing them and making them…

https://mondoweiss.net/2014/09/blackmails-palestinian-informants

SharonEllis · 12/07/2025 11:06

Its easy to find a clip to prove hatred from one side to another in a war. I don't have time to investigate it fully but all nations engage in this sort of thing in war. I also remember what happened on 7 October. Eliminating all of Hamas is a legitimate hope after 7 October isnt it? Hamas did not behave like humane humans on that day did they? I dont like using children in this way but I dont think this is a uniquely Israeli thing. You said yourself the video was taken down. Yet who in gaza stopped the celebrations of 7 october? Its hardly the same as the cradle to grave indoctrination of gaza's children by Hamas, is it? Not least because other narratives exist in Israeli society.

Plus I agree with everything @ForgesOfEmpires said in her two posts.

SharonEllis · 12/07/2025 11:10

Tooblondetooyoung · 12/07/2025 10:37

Just coming back on some misinformation here...

The only place in the ME where being gay is not punishable by death
Except for Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Oman, Kuwait, Palestine (both Gaza and West Bank), Bahrain.

Granted many of these. It's still illegal and would result in a substantial prison sentence, but death penalty is not on their books. There are some other countries where it's legal, including the West Bank, Bahrain, Jordan. Even in those countries, it's going to be a very tough place to be a, but your statement that Israel is the only place in the middle East for being gay is not punishable by death is demonstrably completely and utterly wrong.

Israel is not expected to be 'perfect'. It's expected to not commit war crimes. It's expected not to commit war crimes. It's expected not to commit genocide. It's a pretty low bar we are setting here and they are failing miserably at that. Israel is the only country that is given a free pass for these things.

Apologies you are correct, I did not double check. Many countries in the ME merely outlaw homosexuality rather than execute people. Pretty grim though. Where would you rather live, a place where being gay is illegal or one where being gay can be normal and can even be openly celebrated?

veiledsentiments · 12/07/2025 11:23

SharonEllis · 12/07/2025 11:06

Its easy to find a clip to prove hatred from one side to another in a war. I don't have time to investigate it fully but all nations engage in this sort of thing in war. I also remember what happened on 7 October. Eliminating all of Hamas is a legitimate hope after 7 October isnt it? Hamas did not behave like humane humans on that day did they? I dont like using children in this way but I dont think this is a uniquely Israeli thing. You said yourself the video was taken down. Yet who in gaza stopped the celebrations of 7 october? Its hardly the same as the cradle to grave indoctrination of gaza's children by Hamas, is it? Not least because other narratives exist in Israeli society.

Plus I agree with everything @ForgesOfEmpires said in her two posts.

Israelis gather on hillsides to watch and cheer as military drops bombs on Gaza
This article is more than 10 years old
People drink, snack and pose for selfies against a background of explosions as Palestinian death toll mounts in ongoing offensive

But Israelis do it too @SharonEllis

veiledsentiments · 12/07/2025 11:34

No. I agree. It’s not right. However, to believe it’s only Palestinian children who have been indoctrinated to hate Jews, and that it is a one way street is clearly not true.

SharonEllis · 12/07/2025 11:35

veiledsentiments · 12/07/2025 11:23

Israelis gather on hillsides to watch and cheer as military drops bombs on Gaza
This article is more than 10 years old
People drink, snack and pose for selfies against a background of explosions as Palestinian death toll mounts in ongoing offensive

But Israelis do it too @SharonEllis

Yes you will find this stuff happening in a war situation anywhere. More broadly as @ForgesOfEmpires has set out in more detail than me the two situations are not in any way comparable. As you have already admitted to having no empathy for Israelis and not being arsed about antisemitism, which you blame Israel for, I dont think I have any more to say to you.

ForgesOfEmpires · 12/07/2025 11:42

It’s a false equivalence to compare fringe behaviour in Israel with the systemic glorification of terrorism under Hamas. Yes, in 2014, a small group of civilians near Sderot watched the fighting from a hilltop—widely condemned across Israeli society, media, and political figures. It was not government-led, not supported by the education system, and certainly not representative of Israeli values.

By contrast, in Gaza, the October 7 massacre was openly celebrated in the streets, with zero condemnation from Hamas—the ruling authority—and widespread glorification on TV, in schools, and online.

The difference is stark: Israel is a pluralistic democracy with internal debate, media freedom, and a broad political spectrum. There are Jewish and Arab peace activists, human rights NGOs, and dissenting voices—even during war. Israeli kids live as neighbours with Arabs, visit them when they need a doctor, share uni classes with them. The comparison you're making is absurd.

A small group of civilians behaving badly during a war and being condemned is not equivalent to a ruling party that educates children to seek genocide, pays killers, and celebrates the murder of civilians. There’s no moral symmetry here—just a desperate attempt to draw one.

veiledsentiments · 12/07/2025 11:49

ForgesOfEmpires · 12/07/2025 11:42

It’s a false equivalence to compare fringe behaviour in Israel with the systemic glorification of terrorism under Hamas. Yes, in 2014, a small group of civilians near Sderot watched the fighting from a hilltop—widely condemned across Israeli society, media, and political figures. It was not government-led, not supported by the education system, and certainly not representative of Israeli values.

By contrast, in Gaza, the October 7 massacre was openly celebrated in the streets, with zero condemnation from Hamas—the ruling authority—and widespread glorification on TV, in schools, and online.

The difference is stark: Israel is a pluralistic democracy with internal debate, media freedom, and a broad political spectrum. There are Jewish and Arab peace activists, human rights NGOs, and dissenting voices—even during war. Israeli kids live as neighbours with Arabs, visit them when they need a doctor, share uni classes with them. The comparison you're making is absurd.

A small group of civilians behaving badly during a war and being condemned is not equivalent to a ruling party that educates children to seek genocide, pays killers, and celebrates the murder of civilians. There’s no moral symmetry here—just a desperate attempt to draw one.

The PA government has claimed it does not make payments to families of prisoners belonging to Hamas or Islamic Jihad.[10]
Palestinian Authority Martyrs Fund - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Authority_Martyrs_Fund#cite_note-PLOStipendsRestored-10

Again. You clearly missed it.

Palestinian Authority Martyrs Fund - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Authority_Martyrs_Fund#cite_note-PLOStipendsRestored-10

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