Have the events of the last couple of days changed your mind on the Israel/Gaza crisis?

[BaMamma]

Not only, but including, the macabre theatre with the coffins of the Bibas babies, Oded Lifshitz, and, as we now know, a currently anonymous Palestinian woman.

The locked coffins with no keys.

The antisemitic poster of Netanyahu as a blood sucking vampire.

The celebrations in Gaza, happy, joyful people surrounding those coffins., children dancing, parents smiling.

The 'mix-up' over Shiri Bibas body.

The discovery that the babies were murdered, not killed in an airstrike.

Does any of that change your mind about the rightness of your position on Israel and Palestine/Gaza?

Jewish Germans were persecuted within their own country in a completely different situation.

It seems to me that Israelis hate Palestinians as much as Palestinians hate Israelis.

I'm not sure how this ww2 comparison works at all. The power imbalance is completely different.

The power imbalance is different, yet Hamas (with the help of quite a few civilians) decided to launch an attack on October 7th, specifically targeting teenagers, families and peaceful Kibbutzniks.
What did they think would happen?

What kind of life do people in Gaza have? Thinking about that might give you some insight into why some may have descended into pure hatred.

But yes, many of us are capable of being complicit in evil under the right circumstances. It's an uncomfortable truth.

What life do they have?

Well a much worse one than if they didn't hate Jews so much that they prioritise murdering Jewish babies over their own children's future.

Terrorist apologists make me sick.

What has horrified me is how many ordinary Gazans are child abusers - that ghastly ceremony yesterday, with thousands of children present, encouraged to laugh and cheer.

Genuinely surprised by the assertion upthread that blood libel isn't something most people in the U.K. know about - I am from a very working class background and it was absolutely mentioned in school to give context for the holocaust. Surely all schools teach about the holocaust? I even remember doing about it in primary school, let alone secondary school.

My parents and grandparents all know what blood libel is because they have a basic grasp of religious history. My grandparents left school age 14 to go to work, so hardly very well-educated types, but they do value education if only because they are sad they were denied it themselves.

I think this type of ignorance is what happens amongst certain types who have swallowed up the ridicule and dismissal of arts and humanities study.

@Vinni8 i think you are forgetting that many people don’t have the same upbringing as you so won’t have the same experience. They probably know things you don’t know as basic information too.

What kind of life would excuse a barbaric attack, and not on a military base, but specifically targeting families and teenagers?
Russia invaded Ukraine three years ago, occupied 20% of its territory, bombed several civilian sites.
Do you see hoards of Ukrainians running across the border to gleefully rape, torture and murder Russian women and children?
What kind of life did the Gazans have before October 7th? They’ve received billions in aid since Israel withdrew completely in 2005, yet their elected leaders decided to prioritise tunnels and rockets.
I’ve seen several clips on social media, posted by Gazans themselves, showing what Gaza used to look like, how beautiful it used to be. They show plentiful markets, restaurants, villas, beach promenades.
Not saying everything was perfect, but to suggest they were struggling in some absolute hellhole until they flipped out one day is too simplistic.

I had an entirely normal working class upbringing. And yes, I am sure there are a great many things that I don't know - however I wouldn't use my ignorance as an excuse for defending antisemitism/racial hatred, and then claim it's alright because most other people probably don't know about it either.

The Dehumanisation of Palestinians

www.instagram.com/reel/DF5P7BitP3z/?igsh=d2ZzYTg4MHBtYnh1

No, I was pro Israel then and even more so now. I have never supported 'Palestine'.

The last few days didn't change my mind because October 7th and the reactions to it already did that. I used to think that both sides were as bad as each other and a two-state solution was the obvious one.

October 7th was horrific, and the number of Palestinians and their supporters who defend it and Hamas shocks me. There isn't a small group of terrorists oppressing the rest of the population who would rather live in peace. Most Palestinians want Israel destroyed.

I used to think that complaints of anti-Semitism were overblown and that nobody in modern Western countries actually wished harm on Jews. I was very wrong.

This canard that Israel left Gaza in 2005 gets repeated here all the time without challenge. The ICJ determined last year that Israel illegally occupies Gaza and the West Bank. Israel ignored the ruling.

I also haven't changed my views over the last couple of days, because they were changed by October 7.

I was scrolling X when I saw the footage - a day of basically watching a live mass slaughter unfold.

his canard that Israel left Gaza in 2005 gets repeated here all the time without challenge. The ICJ determined last year that Israel illegally occupies Gaza and the West Bank. Israel ignored the ruling.

They're said to "occupy" Gaza because they tightly control the border and flow of goods. After October 7 it was clearly, clearly apparent to me why they needed to do so.

https://interactive.aljazeera.com/aje/2024/israel-occupation-illustrated-guide/

These are the ways that Israel controlled Gaza prior to October 7th.

These are the ways that Israel controlled Gaza prior to October 7th.

For shits & giggles, right? Not because Gaza was controlled by an organisation whose stated aim is to rid Israel of every Jew?

How come you didn’t post or refer to the rest of my quote? Which said:

There is death and destruction on both sides. Innocent people, children, dying on both sides

Instead you just take one line out of all context and then answer it like it doesn’t make sense.

Because, frankly, your 1st sentence came over as patronising, and I focused on that.
There cannot be anyone who is not aware of death and destruction on both sides and support for both sides has solidified into the position where most posters will say 'I support Israel/Palestine'.
That's the way of it.
For all the reasons given here (and on other threads) I do support Israel.

So withholding taxes and funds to pay government workers on a regular basis , reducing Internet speed to hamper commerce, reduced water consumption and making people pay for their house to be bulldozed as well as people dying in Israeli military checkpoints on their way to work is going to foster good relations between the two groups.

Sinn Fein were not supported by the majority of nationalists in NI during the Troubles, that is simply a lie. The largest nationalist party was the SDLP, who were opposed to violence and whose leader John Hume worked tirelessly to achieve peace.

In ROI, Sinn Fein was a fringe party that had very little support. The Irish people in general were opposed to violence, and as a child I remember the peace marches after the Warrington bombing.

The more extreme parties in NI (both Sinn Fein and the DUP) began to make gains several years after the Good Friday agreement.

I believe it's a different situation in Gaza, however labelling an entire population as terrorists is a dangerous road to go down. A Palestinian child is just as innocent as those poor Bibas boys, but it seems some posters on here believe the killing of children on one side is justified, and on the other side it's a barbaric crime.

The killing of any innocent child is barbaric and those making excuses for it should hang their heads in shame.

And an edited, translated video on a pro-Hamas Instagram account with a bunch of antisemitic comments under it proves what exactly?

is going to foster good relations between the two groups.

I don't believe there is anything Israel can do to "foster good relations" with an organisation who wants to wipe them off the face of the earth. The best thing you can do is protect yourself.
Gazan society needs to deradicalise.