Have the events of the last couple of days changed your mind on the Israel/Gaza crisis?

[BaMamma]

Not only, but including, the macabre theatre with the coffins of the Bibas babies, Oded Lifshitz, and, as we now know, a currently anonymous Palestinian woman.

The locked coffins with no keys.

The antisemitic poster of Netanyahu as a blood sucking vampire.

The celebrations in Gaza, happy, joyful people surrounding those coffins., children dancing, parents smiling.

The 'mix-up' over Shiri Bibas body.

The discovery that the babies were murdered, not killed in an airstrike.

Does any of that change your mind about the rightness of your position on Israel and Palestine/Gaza?

I'm Irish too and find it very scary that thousands and thousands of innocent civilians can be murdered and seemingly a lot of British people don't think it's a genocide.

Because it isn't. I don't care what antisemitic international committees say, it does not in any way constitute a genocide.

As a human, I understand civilian fatalities in a war is very.sad.
However, words have meanings. For Israel to be committing genocide, it would have to be the intention of Israel to wipe all Gazans from creation. Being a civilian of a losing side in a war that one's side instigated does not fall under the definition of genocide. No matter how much people try and make it be.

Furthermore, any accusations of genocide would be better validated by throwing them at Hamas.

Only two days ago one of the remaining Hamas top notch blatantly answered in the affirmative if the 7th October attacks were worth it.

So a terrorist group, whose intention is to wipe Jews and Israel from the map, (with the support of too many civilians) has that as a priority over so called liberation of Gaza/Palestine.....and if tens of thousands of its civilians/Hamas operatives/ co conspirators have to die in order to satisfy the need to see Jewish people and any affiliates die.......
Who's really committing "genocide" here?
Intention, not war casualties is what defines Genocide.

Hamas has a policy that all Gazan women of fertile age.should have as many children as possible.

This is probably to make sure that there will be enough numbers to feed into the civilian to Hamas sheild/ operative pipeline anytime that Israel retaliates or locks up suspect operatives in numbers.

That is why the average age in Gaza is very young.

All the contrivance suggests intention and continued preparation in Hamas carrying out its genocidal aims far more than anything Israel has done since her modern inception.

The expectation that Israel/Israelis/Jews/allies care more for Gazan lives than Hamas and its overt and covert allies do is the thing that rankles.

Especially as on not ONE "peace" pro Palestine march has there been any loud sloganeering suggesting that Hamas lay down arms, or at least stop using civilians and hospitals to hide behind.

At least back in the day "Radical Chic" anti "the man" ( whoever."the man" was ) were overt with their support of what was deemed terrorists.

These days, it's about throwing rocks and hiding hands, not wanting to plant the corn, but raid the barn by being anti Semitic and pro Hamas, but "hiding" said views by flinging anti Zionism here and a Netanyahu there.....to dupe the non comprehending and those who mistake information for knowledge.

This.

Despite all Hamas previous atrocities, I've been taken aback at the depths of the deliberate, malicious cruelty of Hamas, and the all-encompassing Jew Hatred which they've revealed.

I've also had a dawning realisation of how widely held their views are in Gaza.

I no longer see a meaningful distinction between 'Hamas' and 'Gazans'. It's like Nazi Germany. Not all Germans were Nazis, and many risked their lives to save innocent people. But many in the population supported them, shared Nazi beliefs, and played their part in the Nazi atrocities. The German population had to go through a brutal, comprehensive denazification program after the war before the other countries would allow them to move forward. That de-natzification benefitted Germany hugely in the end.

Unfortunately, such a program wouldn't be acceptable in our modern times. So the malignant terrorist death cults - Hamas and others - will continue to fester within Palestinian society.

I now don't believe there can ever be a 2 state solution.

It’s not a football team.
Thanks for that. And, yes, I support Israel.

I remember saying to my mum as soon as I heard about the Oct 7th attack that the result was going to be a bloodbath for the people in Palestine. Which is what it was. Anyone withholding basic needs such as food, water and medicines to a whole population under bombardment is committing genocide.

You need to look into the definition of genocide. Killing 1000s of people in a war doesnt automatically equate to genocide.

Like pp, I've also been shocked at quite how much deeply-entrenched anti-semitism there still is. Once you see it, you can't un-see it.

The last month - starting with Holocaust Memorial Day - has changed how I see Ireland.

I suspect a lot of do know it's genocide deep down, they just can't admit it out loud, so they deny it instead.

It's not genocide, no matter how many times you try to appropriate that word and change its meaning.

As @easytouch says above:

Being a civilian of a losing side in a war that one's side instigated does not fall under the definition of genocide.

No, I wasn’t supporting Hamas in the first place that’s what a lot of the posters on here don’t seem to understand about Palestinian support. It’s not Hamas support.

My stance has not changed, I still think the state of Israel has committed war crimes.

I still think that IDF soldiers are evil rapists, who have admitted rape, been caught on camera raping. Been caught on camera driving over civilians with tanks, snippering children. Stealing organs, lying that a calendar was a Hamas list, lying about what was under the hospital, bulldozing graveyards, strapping children to tanks as human shields, putting bombs on children and sending them down tunnels, admitting that they want to ethnically cleanse Gaza and the West Bank, stealing Syrian land, attempting to steal Lebanese land. Being filmed throwing live bodies off of roof tops. Gosh what else too much.

I think the media are bias, calling Hind a women, underreporting Palestinian deaths, calling Israeli POW’s poor teenagers. Cancelling celebrities that speak out, taking them out of movies.

Also it didn’t start on October the 7th, People were not living peacefully. Before that happened it was still the deadliest year on record for Palestinian children.

“Israel investigates after its soldiers filmed throwing bodies off roof”
www.bbc.com/news/articles/cn8jg0x5xg8o.amp

Israel returns ‘decomposed’ bodies of 89 Palestinians to Gaza
https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2024/8/5/israel-returns-decomposed-bodies-of-89-palestinians-to-gaza

“Hind Rajab, 6, found dead in Gaza days after phone calls for help“
www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68261286.amp

IDF found a calendar in Arabic, not a Hamas ‘names list’ at hospital
www.france24.com/en/tv-shows/truth-or-fake/20231116-idf-claims-to-find-list-of-hamas-names-but-it-s-the-days-of-the-week-in-arabic

Video appears to show IDF soldiers sexually abusing Palestinian detainee
https://news.sky.com/story/amp/video-appears-to-show-idf-soldiers-sexually-abusing-palestinian-detainee-13193857

UN experts appalled by reported human rights violations against Palestinian women and girls
https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/02/israelopt-un-experts-appalled-reported-human-rights-violations-against

UN Commission finds war crimes and crimes against humanity in Israeli attacks on Gaza health facilities and treatment of detainees, hostages
https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/10/un-commission-finds-war-crimes-and-crimes-against-humanity-israeli-attacks

Susan Sarandon Dropped by Talent Agency After Remarks on Gaza War

Separately, Melissa Barrera lost her role in the “Scream” movies for Instagram posts about Israel.
www.nytimes.com/2023/11/21/business/susan-sarandon-dropped-talent-agency.html#:~:text=Susan%20Sarandon%2C%20a%20five%2Dtime,pro%2DPalestinian%20rally%20last%20week.

London hospital takes down artwork by Gaza schoolchildren after complaint
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/feb/27/artwork-gaza-schoolchildren-removed-chelsea-and-westminster-hospital

Palestine before October 7th
https://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/2023/11/24/countdown-to-genocide/

Doctor admits Israeli pathologists harvested organs without consent
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/dec/21/israeli-pathologists-harvested-organs

Israel 'stealing organs' from bodies in Gaza, alleges human rights group
https://www.euronews.com/2023/11/27/israel-stealing-organs-from-bodies-in-gaza-alleges-human-right-group

The Israeli military has used Palestinians as human shields in Gaza, soldier and former detainees say
amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/10/24/middleeast/palestinians-human-shields-israel-military-gaza-intl

My dad was a child in nazi Germany, and he too makes no distinction between the Germans and the Nazis. The majority supported the Nazi party in the same way as the majority of Palestinians support Hamas.

Don't forget that the Bibas family weren't taken by Hamas, but by Palestinians giving them a hand, who then passed them onto Hamas.
According to Wikipedia, on 7 October 2000 Palestinian civilians went into Israel and committed atrocities. That's on top of Hamas.
They are complicit.

The situation is entirely different though isn't it. I don't see how it is at all helpful to compare them.

Stop trying to make all the Palestinians a target. I see what your’re doing. Making it like every death of a Palestinian is ok because look at what some Palestinians did. Evil.

Palestinian lives are Equal to Israeli lives and if you think differently then you are racist scum

I don't think anyone is saying it is justified. But comparing an isolated terrorist attack to months of devastating bombing causing thousands of deaths including children is not really fair.

@spooooook we must be reading different responses then.

But comparing an isolated terrorist attack to months of devastating bombing causing thousands of deaths including children is not really fair.

I don't know what this means.

I am comparing the UK involvement with the War on Terror and the subsequent increases in terrorism here.

My dad was a child in nazi Germany, and he too makes no distinction between the Germans and the Nazis. The majority supported the Nazi party in the same way as the majority of Palestinians support Hamas.

That's why the Nazis could do what they did.

This.

@Ikhffgj do you think German lives didn't matter in WW2, because many Germans supported Nazi ideas?

You need to get past your one-dimensional, good vs evil thinking.

(Incidentally, you also need to dig a bit deeper before blindly believing propaganda. You know that organ scandal - in one rogue hospital - wasn't about Palestinians, right? All Israelis were victims, including IDF soldiers)

Ignoring reality for your idealised narrative isn’t helpful.

So while an actual bloodbath was happening you were mostly concerned about the consequences for the side whose leaders (with help of quite a few civilians) initiated said bloodbath?

She’s not comparing regular Palestinians to Nazis, she’s comparing them to the Germans living under the Nazi regime.
Many of them supported the Nazis, but there were also several cases where Germans tried to hide and protect Jewish people, risking their own lives in doing so. I’m yet to hear about similar cases in Gaza.

I didn't bother going through your links. The multiple organ scandal links jumped out as I scrolled past because I (unlike you, clearly) read up about it when it came up. Definitely can't be bothered going into it - this thread is supposed to be about how people's views have changed following the latest Hamas cruelties, not a re-hash of the usual.

I posted about my realisation that most Gazans support the Hamas Jew- Hating worldview, and a majority support the October 7th atrocities. In stark contrast to the usual narrative of innocent Gazans unable to free themselves from a tiny number of evil Hamas, which we all want to believe. And what that means for the future of Gaza and Palestinians generally.

I'm sorry you can't accept that truth, but it is true nonetheless. And it's not racist or wrong to try to actually understand reality. Painting a fairytale isn't helpful.

I do think it's helpful to point out the similarity to many Germans in WW2 supporting abhorrent Nazi ideas. In particular, what was needed for Germany to move past that.