Have the events of the last couple of days changed your mind on the Israel/Gaza crisis?

[BaMamma]

Not only, but including, the macabre theatre with the coffins of the Bibas babies, Oded Lifshitz, and, as we now know, a currently anonymous Palestinian woman.

The locked coffins with no keys.

The antisemitic poster of Netanyahu as a blood sucking vampire.

The celebrations in Gaza, happy, joyful people surrounding those coffins., children dancing, parents smiling.

The 'mix-up' over Shiri Bibas body.

The discovery that the babies were murdered, not killed in an airstrike.

Does any of that change your mind about the rightness of your position on Israel and Palestine/Gaza?

No because I thought Hamas were brutal terrorists on Oct 7 and I think they are brutal terrorists now. So my opinion hasn’t changed.

@ArtTheClown

You repeated the same thing.

Do you think the extremely restrictions placed on life in Gaza as posted in the link are justified so?
Do you not think that placing these restrictions have helped Hamas to gain membership ( as well as Netanyahu supporting Hamas in the past)

So agree with this

Do you think the extremely restrictions placed on life in Gaza as posted in the link are justified so?
Do you not think that placing these restrictions have helped Hamas to gain membership ( as well as Netanyahu supporting Hamas in the past)

Yes, October 7 proved that. Hamas was voted in prior to the extreme restrictions, which then followed as consequence.

There has also been some easing of the restrictions, including the granting of work visas to Gazans, prior to October 7, so things were actually moving in a positive direction before Hamas wrecked that in the worst way imaginable.

@Broug

Whilst not wishing to derail this thread its true SDLP were the biggest nationalist party pre GFA but during the troubles its hard to ignore the thousands that voted Sinn Fien early eighties. Nor the show IRA funerals.
There were peace marches long before Warrington in NI, a lot of really good work done then not that any of the terrorist groups listened.
Thankfully we have came a long way but still find it hard to fathom how many now vote for this party.
Any way the above is another thread.

Of course any child is innocent, true of every conflict, I think it is the alleged brutality of the killing of these children rather than"collateral damage" ( a phrase I detest btw) but context is everything, that is so horrifying.

No, I supported Israel before and still do. But I absolutely don't agree with everything they're doing, the far right (elected) government needs to answer for their actions. International aid and independent journalism are desperately needed in Gaza, and the illegal settlers in West Bank should be in prison, frankly.

I feel very conflicted about the people of Gaza though because they've gone through immense trauma and they need help and to rebuild. They deserve to have their own independent state in the same way everywhere else has. If the Palestinian cause was just about that I would support them wholeheartedly. But it's not, it's about destroying Israel and has been from day one. When we talk about Nazi Germany (with apologies for this tired analogy), we don't talk about 'the innocent Germans under the Nazis', we talk about Nazi Germany. I feel the same way about Hamas Gaza. If you want to know why, look to the recent scenes with those poor Bibas children in their coffins, as well as the celebrations over October 7th.

I also don't feel endless sympathy over the creation of Israel and this idea that they should get all 'their' land back. Many lines were redrawn and peoples displaced in the 20th Century (including Middle Eastern Jewish communities). We have to move on.

I would love to see peace in the region one day but I'm feeling a bit hopeless about it at the moment, when there is so much hatred and dehumanisation going on from both sides.

You are surely aware that your normal is not universal? I do not come from a working class background and hadn’t heard the term at all that I remember. I would assume my experience is not that rare or that class had very much to do with it. Surely it’s more likely your school chose to highlight it while mine focused on other things?

But you could still have looked it up of your own free will no?

Well yes, I googled when I saw it mentioned here. Why would I not?

@inamarina
** By that same logic one could perfectly well excuse Israel’s retaliation after October 7th.
Having over a thousand of your citizens raped, tortured and killed in a single day will unlikely make you have ‘warm thoughts’ towards your attackers.**

Exactly this.

The ignorance and lack of logic or even respect/humanity on this thread is maddening.
There is no country in the entire world that would not have responded promptly and with force if they'd endured an attack such as October 7th. Literally none.

So many here are not only ignorant of the history in the region, following tribal media rabts abd thrn regurgitating them. That's unpalatable enough.

But the stupidity of these posters who have failed to connect the fact that Israel's actions were a direct response to unthinkable terror & atrocities is terrifying.

Where are all the Muslim clerics who ought to be keen to disassociate their religion from Hamas, this prolonged terror and hatred? Why are we permitting protest marches which actively promote anti-Semitism?

And.... why are none of those posting here able to make threads distinctions between hostages & prisoners? Why no acknowledgement of the pain caused by Hamas? It's reached moronic levels now.

@SmokeRingsOfMyMind
I can't speak for anyone else but I was very disturbed and upset by that. The IDF have a lot of questions to answer over that and any similar incidents (and I'm not suggesting this was the only one). I do think it's easier to see a path towards that than to see how Gazans could become deradicalised though, given Hamas seem to be going nowhere. It was the way the Bibas murders were publicly celebrated that puts them into a different level of horror for me.

Well that's exactly it isn't it, she was also an innocent child, the double standards are very disturbing

There's very very little sympathy shown to any killing in Gaza from the pro Israeli supporters on here, its like most of them can't contemplate the thousands slaughtered in Gaza as real people.

I believe a lot of it is Islamaphobia plain and simple

Yes Islamaphobia is rife on mumsnet sadly.

Could you point us towards 1 example of Islamophobia on here?

Maybe because if October the 7th hadn't occured, there would have been no need for a war.

They can't, because there isn't any.

The constant insinuation that being Palestinian means you are either a terrorist or terrorist sympathiser. It's a racist trope and Islamaphobic one that being Muslim links you to terrorism.

That is a lot of meaningless buzzwords for two sentences.

Can you give specific examples?

Well maybe?
But if you'd have asked me a month ago if there was any antisemitism on mumsnet I'd have said no, don't be silly. So now I think my radar is totally off.
I think it's quite possible I wouldn't recognize Islamophobia if I saw it so it's a genuine question and I'd really like to know...
If it's rife as pp said should be pretty easy to point out a few examples...

OK, I get that. Can you point me to a post where someone does that?

Yes, and as part of that the dehumanisation of a people.

The recent scenes coming out of Gaza of the many civilians, including children, celebrating over the mutilated corpses of murdered Jewish babies, is going to be an obvious point of discussion.

Everyone acknowledges that it is not all Palestinians, although the comparison has been made that no such distinction is made for Nazi’s and German civilians, which is a fair enough point to make, really, given what is being discussed.

This is how discussions go. People go back and forth with thoughts on the topic at hand.

Jumping in with accusations of “Islamophobia” and “racist tropes” only serves to shut down people discussing what you and others are clearly uncomfortable with people discussing - the many Palestinian civilians cheering and celebrating the paraded bodies of murderer Jewish babies.

If you are uncomfortable with the conversation, you do not need to take part. But you don’t get to stop others talking about it. You certainly don’t get to call people Islamophobes and racists for discussing scenes which have sickened Muslims and non Muslims alike.