Page 4 | Have the events of the last couple of days changed your mind on the Israel/Gaza crisis?

Puffykins · 21/02/2025 21:54

Thank you @polyesterdress

CarobyBlobs · 21/02/2025 22:01

Watching Palestinian civilians happily celebrating over the coffins of children just cements my support for Israel. Revolting that people are trying to what about that imagery away

Sixpence39 · 21/02/2025 22:14

No, I don't find the death of 3 people more shocking than the death of 40,000 people (mostly women and children). And if you haven't seen all the Israeli soldiers celebrating the destruction you haven't been watching closely enough. Hamas aren't the only evil ones here.

Original poster

BaMamma · 21/02/2025 22:18

Sixpence39 · 21/02/2025 22:14

No, I don't find the death of 3 people more shocking than the death of 40,000 people (mostly women and children). And if you haven't seen all the Israeli soldiers celebrating the destruction you haven't been watching closely enough. Hamas aren't the only evil ones here.

There were Palestinian civilians, including children, celebrating over the coffins. That's depraved and if you can't see that you can't be helped.

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Sixpence39 · 21/02/2025 22:23

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

HellonHeels · 21/02/2025 22:32

I am absolutely disgusted by the open, blatant antisemitism posted by some on this thread.

HellonHeels · 21/02/2025 22:33

It is jew hatred plain and simple.

SharonEllis · 21/02/2025 22:37

polyesterdress · 21/02/2025 21:52

I dont want to reply specifically to the individual who said 'I'm not anti-Semitic, I'm just anti-Zionist' because I don't want to single out one person, but to anyone who think that way:

I've really stopped accepting this sleight of hand of 'I'm not antisemtic, I'm just anti-Zionist'. To be anti-Zionist means you don't think the state of Israel should exist, that Jews should have no homeland on the land that their entire religion is centred around (the central prayer, the refrain on holy days - all of it is about being in Israel) and worse still, you think Jews have no right to the land they have occupied for millennia, simply because a large number of them were driven out time and time again (by antisemites) creating a diaspora, where they have faced a genocide every century (and the hands of more antisemites), the last being the Holocaust where a third of their global population were exterminated and countless communities across Europe completely destroyed - ever heard of Greek Jews for example? No, because they were practically all murdered.

But you think, that because the majority of Jews were driven out, that they as a people no longer have a right to be on the land they come from, AND HAVE ALWAYS HAD A PRESENCE IN and that smugly doesn't make you a massive racist.

Where would you like all the Jews to go? Because it's not worked well for them in the diaspora (see aforementioned numerous genocides and 6 million dead) and you don't think they have right to be where they come from so, please, where should they go? Antarctica? Is that good enough?

If you're anti-Zionist, you're anti a two-state solution. By my book, that makes you anti-peace and a massive racist.

This.
And its intolerable that MN allows people to hide their racism under the cover of antizionism.

Sixpence39 · 21/02/2025 22:40

@BaMamma

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblogentry/maccabi-fans-filmed-chanting-racist-slogans-against-arabs-upon-arrival-at-ben-gurion-from-amsterdam/

Israeli civilians celebrating the deaths of gazan children. As reported by times of Israel. Absolutely no difference. Evil on both sides, apart from one has disproportionately more political and military power - and deaths on their hands.

EdithStourton · 21/02/2025 22:48

inamarina · 21/02/2025 20:05

but I've had a shocking realization of how much antisemitism is around and how deeply entrenched it is. I wasn't aware of this at all until very recently.

I feel the same.

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Likewise.
A Jewish friend said to me about a year ago, You begin to think, hey, antisemitism seems to have tailed off a bit, everyone gets outraged by it... and then WHAM, back it comes.

MissyB1 · 21/02/2025 22:49

HellonHeels · 21/02/2025 22:32

I am absolutely disgusted by the open, blatant antisemitism posted by some on this thread.

Plenty of racists too, equating being Palestinian with being Hamas. Palestinian lives are worth just as much as Israeli lives. And Netanyahu is a war criminal.

MrsSkylerWhite · 21/02/2025 22:53

Not at all. Hamas are barbaric. Surely everyone recognises that? I cannot begin to imagine the grief of that poor man.

Palestinian civilians are not barbaric and have suffered immeasurably. Netanyahu is barbaric, too. .

Original poster

BaMamma · 21/02/2025 22:55

MrsSkylerWhite · 21/02/2025 22:53

Not at all. Hamas are barbaric. Surely everyone recognises that? I cannot begin to imagine the grief of that poor man.

Palestinian civilians are not barbaric and have suffered immeasurably. Netanyahu is barbaric, too. .

The celebrations in Gaza, happy, joyful people surrounding those coffins., children dancing, parents smiling.
Ordinary Gazan people laughing and celebrating, encouraged by their leaders; I think that's barbaric.

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Wibblywobblybobbly · 21/02/2025 23:00

BaMamma · 21/02/2025 19:55

You're saying you don't think a picture of Netanyahu as a blood sucker is antisemitic? Are you unaware of the blood libel against Jews since at least the Middle Ages?

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I consider myself fairly well educated and well read, but your post it the first I've heard of blood libel.

I've now read up on it so understand more why the vampire poster is particularly offensive. But don't be surprised that the general public aren't aware of it. If you're not taught about it at school it's perfectly possible you'd just not have heard of it unless you'd studied Jewish history or the Holocaust in detail.

polyesterdress · 21/02/2025 23:02

Sixpence39 · 21/02/2025 22:40

@BaMamma

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblogentry/maccabi-fans-filmed-chanting-racist-slogans-against-arabs-upon-arrival-at-ben-gurion-from-amsterdam/

Israeli civilians celebrating the deaths of gazan children. As reported by times of Israel. Absolutely no difference. Evil on both sides, apart from one has disproportionately more political and military power - and deaths on their hands.

Edited

I agree the behaviour of these football hooligans is nothing other than evil. Any celebration of anyone's death is a failure of humanity, and it does happen on both sides.

But not to the same extent. There are not mass gatherings in Israel of civilians, including children, celebrating death. The marches across Israel are for the government to stop and to bring the hostages home. To the best of my knowledge, Israelis are not out, in mass, celebrating the deaths of Palestinians like we saw yesterday in Gaza.

ssd · 21/02/2025 23:02

Echobelly · 21/02/2025 21:28

I can and will 'both sides' this. Israel has the whip hand, and as Jews we should better than anyone what it is to live under that - with power comes responsibility. That they have abused utterly. To have attacked Gaza as they have for a month would have been enough if they wanted revenge, to attack it for a week would have been enough.

No one is expecting them to have done nothing after the horror that was 7 October, but I believe there is a way to respond that is proportionate against a community that has nothing like the same capacity to defend itself as Israel does against large scale attack. I wish to God it wasn't so, I'd love to believe what Israel has done is not as bad as everyone's saying, but my eyes and all the evidence tell me otherwise. I'm not surprised many Palestinians loathe Israel now, which doesn't mean I excuse the behaviour of those who celebrate death. But Netanyahu is chomping at the bit to end the ceasefire (another reason I am hesitant to accept the IDF's evidence) and has ensured the hatred will burn furiously for another generation, to the detriment of Israel and Jews everywhere.

💯 this

spooooook · 21/02/2025 23:03

I don't know how anyone can judge the actions of these people, it's so stratospherically far from the lives that we lead here.
Do I think dancing around coffins is barabaric? Of course, but I also haven't seen my home and family blown to smithereens. Who the fuck knows how I'd behave in that situation.

Original poster

BaMamma · 21/02/2025 23:05

Wibblywobblybobbly · 21/02/2025 23:00

I consider myself fairly well educated and well read, but your post it the first I've heard of blood libel.

I've now read up on it so understand more why the vampire poster is particularly offensive. But don't be surprised that the general public aren't aware of it. If you're not taught about it at school it's perfectly possible you'd just not have heard of it unless you'd studied Jewish history or the Holocaust in detail.

Show quote history

The problem with seeing antisemitism is that it's been part of European culture for so long it's almost invisible until you know what you're looking at.

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inamarina · 21/02/2025 23:10

spooooook · 21/02/2025 23:03

I don't know how anyone can judge the actions of these people, it's so stratospherically far from the lives that we lead here.
Do I think dancing around coffins is barabaric? Of course, but I also haven't seen my home and family blown to smithereens. Who the fuck knows how I'd behave in that situation.

You think if your house is destroyed you might end up celebrating the death of a baby and a toddler? And bring your own kids along to celebrate with you?

Lovelyview · 21/02/2025 23:12

I've always been ambivalent about Israel/Palastine seeing it as a difficult situation managed badly by both sides. 7/11 made me realise what Israel were really facing and Hamas' actions on that day and subsequently made me realise Israel has to defend itself against an enemy that uses it's own people as human shields. I don't think Israel will destroy Hamas sadly but I have hope that the power of Hamas, Hezbollah and Iran is on the way out.

tinytemper66 · 21/02/2025 23:14

I still feel sorry for the victims on both sides. There are no winners and it will only get worse for those in Gaza who cannot get out.

spooooook · 21/02/2025 23:15

I don't know @inamarina , I don't feel that either side sees the other as human anymore.

Ladamesansmerci · 21/02/2025 23:18

Hamas are a terrorist group. This is not news.

It doesn't change the fact Israel are committing a genocide against Palestine.

inamarina · 21/02/2025 23:18

spooooook · 21/02/2025 23:15

I don't know @inamarina , I don't feel that either side sees the other as human anymore.

I just haven’t seen similar behaviour on the Israeli side, families celebrating dead hostages and children dancing on a stage where coffins had been.

ParsnipPuree · 21/02/2025 23:19

MissAmbrosia · 21/02/2025 20:28

Hamas and Palestine are not the same thing. You can dislike Hamas and still think it's wrong that Palestine should be destroyed. Innocent victims on all sides.

You mean the innocent victims who were seen dancing and cheering alongside the babies coffins?