Have the events of the last couple of days changed your mind on the Israel/Gaza crisis?

[BaMamma]

Not only, but including, the macabre theatre with the coffins of the Bibas babies, Oded Lifshitz, and, as we now know, a currently anonymous Palestinian woman.

The locked coffins with no keys.

The antisemitic poster of Netanyahu as a blood sucking vampire.

The celebrations in Gaza, happy, joyful people surrounding those coffins., children dancing, parents smiling.

The 'mix-up' over Shiri Bibas body.

The discovery that the babies were murdered, not killed in an airstrike.

Does any of that change your mind about the rightness of your position on Israel and Palestine/Gaza?

And Jewish people lived on the land before the invention of Christianity or Islam.

...and Palestinians live in Israel now.
I don't think a Jew would have much of a life span living in Palestine

Palestine is for the Palestinians. Israel is for the Israelis. As said before on this thread by a wise person: there is plenty of space for both from the river to the sea.

They certainly did before the creation of the modern state of Israel.

So what do you do when they can’t live side by side in peace? Accept continued torture, violence and murder, on the alter of a mantra?

Yeah right

Once again, this myth about European Jews in Israel. While many are from Europe, equally there are Jews from Muslim lands, Africa and Asia who are Israeli citizens. Many are the children and grandchildren of Jews expelled from Arab countries in 1948, (over 850,000 from Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Yemen, Libya, Morocco etc).

As for converting to Christianity, this was in most cases forced and long before the British Mandate took over the land after the Ottoman Empire was defeated in WW1. Are you unaware that for hundreds of years, while under the Ottomans, the land was commonly known as the Holy Land? Palestine did not exist then, although local people called the area 'filistin'.

Finally, Jews were indigenous to the land long before Islam as you must well know.

Ok, if DNA is what entitles you to land, do you believe that anybody that isn’t white British has a lesser right to live here than white Celt/Anglo-Saxon Brits?

But the problem is Palestinian leadership never declared a Palestinian state and went about building a successful nation for their people. Instead they set about trying to get rid of the Jewish people from the land entirely. They've never attempted to live in peace with their Jewish cousins.

It didn't have to be this way.

Imagine if they had. There was no need for any of this.

That's rather simplistic. Palestinians had to give up their land or rather have it taken from them and then expected to just accept it and be content with whatever they were left with. My point is addressing the now. If you look at historical grievances then the Palestinians certainly have a greater claim of that spanning decades of abuse and oppression, long before October 7th.

When have the Israelis ever left the West Bank and Gaza alone? To live with their cousins? Never. They ‘mow the lawn’ every year. Take more land by force and refer to Palestinians as animals.

www.btselem.org/publications/summaries/200205_land_grab

“Since 1967, each Israeli government has invested significant resources in establishing and expanding the settlements in the Occupied Territories, both in terms of the area of land they occupy and in terms of population.”

Is that living peacefully?

When the original lines were drawn, there was expected to be Jewish people in the Arab parts and vice versa. It wasn't a simple land grab at all. It was a very difficult partition of land where mixed people had been living in for thousands of years in different degrees of war and peace. It wasn't simple at all, you're right.

However, the new Israel attempted to start building a nation for its people to call home, and the Arab peoples decided it wasn't enough land for them, and went to war to get what had been given to Israel.

And if you look at the whole sweep of history, not just the last 70/ 180 years, you'll still find Jewish people have been by far and away the most oppressed.

So I take it you agree with Russia attempting to recapture its old territories in the way it is at the moment?

Do you agree with Russia taking back its old land? Because that’s what Israel thinks it doing.

You are incorrect. In 1948 the Arabs refused the partition that the UN had agreed upon in November 1947. The land 'given' to Israel was much smaller than now, since during the past 77 years Israel has won wars that increased their land ownership.

Israel also gave back land won during war eg the Sinai to Egypt and in 2006 removed themselves from Gaza leading to the elections that saw Hamas snatch power. After annexing the West Bank in 1950 Jordan renounced ownership in 1988, long after Israel won it in the Six Day War in 1967. Since then the West Bank has been considered Occupied Territory with the Palestinian Authority, aka Fatah, having partial civil control alongside Israel.

You put it much better than me!

I'm feeling oddly patient this morning ☺️ xx

Once again, Hamas began this war on 7 October 2023, not Israel.

Since then no land has exchanged hands between Palestinians and Israelis, whereas Russia HAS won back a considerable part of Ukraine, going back to 2014 when it annexed Crimea. No pressure is being put on Russia to cede any Ukrainian land back but there is little doubt that Israel will be under pressure to completely withdraw from Gaza.

Would what you said be considered antisemitic against the Palestinians ( they are Semite’s too)

When will people stop trotting out this tired bit of obfuscation? Semitic refers to a group of languages. 'Antisemitic' has always been used to mean a hatred of Jews, specifically. It has never had a wider meaning or usage.

Wow, I had no idea so many Europeans converted to Judaism.