Have the events of the last couple of days changed your mind on the Israel/Gaza crisis?

[BaMamma]

Not only, but including, the macabre theatre with the coffins of the Bibas babies, Oded Lifshitz, and, as we now know, a currently anonymous Palestinian woman.

The locked coffins with no keys.

The antisemitic poster of Netanyahu as a blood sucking vampire.

The celebrations in Gaza, happy, joyful people surrounding those coffins., children dancing, parents smiling.

The 'mix-up' over Shiri Bibas body.

The discovery that the babies were murdered, not killed in an airstrike.

Does any of that change your mind about the rightness of your position on Israel and Palestine/Gaza?

So I take it you don’t know the history of Israel and Palestine? If you’re morally outraged by the deaths of an Israeli mother and children, then you should be equally outraged and disgusted about the deaths of 20,000 children in Palestine. There should be no distinction. To have differing responses to the deaths is racist and lacks perspective.

This ‘war’ has been going on for over 70 years and the latest violence just happens to be the some of the worst and most abhorrent.

The conflict in Israel and Palestine, has very little to do with morality, indeed that’s part of the problem.

So I take it you don’t know the history of Israel and Palestine? If you’re morally outraged by the deaths of an Israeli mother and children, then you should be equally outraged and disgusted about the deaths of 20,000 children in Palestine. There should be no distinction. To have differing responses to the deaths is racist and lacks perspective.

There's a big difference between deliberately and cold-bloodedly kidnapping and murdering children and babies, and the tragic loss of life caused by collatoral damage in a war. A war started by Hamas, I might add.

I know the history of the region. Israel has had to fight several wars when surrounding countries tried to wipe them out, and two intifadas costing the lives of their citizens. I don't get the outrage when they defend themselves. From some people's perspective, anything they do that isn't just giving up and dying is a cause for great indignation.

It annoys me no end that people so patronisingly assume that pro-Israel people just 'don't know the history', rather than disagreeing. Also, people seem to not understand the difference between war and murder, as you say.

Hind was not collateral damage. She was murdered.

All the children need to be safe, feel safe, and the adults in the region and beyond need to make that happen. Everybody needs to commit every fibre of their being to that end. Anything less fails them and all of us.

We can all do better.

This

All the children need to be safe, feel safe, and the adults in the region and beyond need to make that happen. Everybody needs to commit every fibre of their being to that end. Anything less fails them and all of us.

I do agree with this, which is why I was so deeply horrified at yesterday's disgusting ceremony. All those little children present, all cheering the coffins. It's mass child abuse. They are being radicalised for another generation, and it will bring them nothing but further suffering.

Can we be horrified at this, and at the Hamas attack on 7 October, and also at the same time at the huge number of children and civilians killed in Gaza and their treatment? I'm also just wondering what the people who have expressed on here that they have had their minds changed by viewing the scenes of the ceremony feel about what solution there might be going forward? What can or should - realistically - be done to stop the cycle of killing and violence in your view, given your feelings that nearly or the entire Gazan population has been radicalised?

Everybody loses in war. The idea that Hamas or IDF are going to come back from this level of horror and be able to be the people they would have been is deluded. Those supporting or even pressuring them into their actions will be damaged too. Then there is the aftermath of months of terror among civilians and of course the loss of so many. Real peace and healing is going to take a huge amount of work for a very long time.

Not all problems have solutions, @BambooBambou .

@Peacecanbe you can stop with the condescending "surely"s. I didn't claim that my experience is universal. I expressed surprise at an assertion upthread that one would have to be particularly knowledgable about specific areas of history to have ever heard of blood libel. I regard at least a vague awareness of the term or concept of blood libel to be common knowledge. I mentioned the education/background of my family because the original commenter about this (was it you? I cba to scroll back) said that they regarded themselves as "well-educated" - it therefore seemed worth mentioning that in my experience, even those who are most definitely not well educated are still aware of blood libel. It is not some sort of niche area of knowledge. I am genuinely surprised that someone who thinks themselves to be well-educated has never heard of it.

There - now I've spelt it out very specifically for you.

These are my thoughts too. The recent events have been awful and heartbreaking but the whole thing is awful and heartbreaking.

How do they other?

People I already knew to be bastards have continued to be bastards. Impressively, they managed to find a new level of bastard-ness through their desecration of the deceased (completely cruel, disrespectful and un-Islamic), and they seem set on course to sabotage any hopes of peace and survival for innocent people through continuing to exploit the return of hostages. The senior leaders are not stupid. They must know what will happen when the ceasefire ends, and they're not only hastening that but destroying support and compassion for innocent people through their spectacles.

When I saw the stage behind Oded, Kfir, Ariel and whoever was in what was meant to be Shiri's coffin, I said to my DH, "Well, they've gone full blood libel there". It was disgusting.

Their efforts to make themselves still look popular though hauling out their equally indoctrinated families doesn't make them look good or powerful. It just makes people who see it conclude that this is what is supported by the entire Gazan population, which turns people away from a population in desperate need.

As I have always felt, before October 7th and on every day after, Hamas and their associated groups need to be removed from power and face justice for what they have done, to Israel and Palestine.

yes 💯.
I agree with every word of this.
Thank you for showing true compassion for the victims on both sides .

So, I suppose the answer to the original question is no, because this has been my view on Hamas for years. I know what they are.

I want to second this. Always appreciate Scirocco's posts.

I want peace and justice. I don't want innocent people to die in Palestine or Israel, or anywhere. I believe a Palestinian state should have the right to exist (as well as Israel), and I believe multiple actions taken by the IDF and Israeli government have been wrong and in violation of international law. That doesn't mean I think anything positive about Hamas and terrorists. If a Palestinian state is to stand any chance, it would need to be free from Hamas, de-militarised and de-radicalised.

Thank you. I've not been able to be very active the past few days. Shiri's situation triggered some trauma for me, as I'm sure it has for many people. So relieved she's home now and can be with her babies again.

Exactly so-
War brutalises people- I can’t see an end to it unfortunately- That area has been at loggerheads for decades.
Probably the two children murdered were killed that day- I’d read that hostage takers don’t like children crying and being distressed-
Their mother probably died alongside them, trying to defend them.

After WW2 , one would assume “lessons would be learned,”but they never seem to be.

In 100 years time it’s likely to still be a total nightmare in that area.

If you think this started 70 years ago, perhaps you should read some more history.

@ArtTheClown Can you not see that both sides also play a role in this though.
my own children would be horrified to see a coffin of a child. Traumatised by it. These kids are desensitised to death. Their homes have been bombed. Their schools have been bonbed. Life as they know it is gone. They likely they have all seen children die. As far as they are concerned the Israeli’s killed their own children with bombs sent to kill them. I’m not saying that is the correct view but it’s likely their view.

I’m horrified by both this and what has happened in Gaza. I can’t believe even saying that is controversial or puts me as a terrorist sympathiser.

Perhaps some of us actually "know the history" far better than they do...

Yes I’m amazed at how many people have no idea how and why Israel was created and what happened the day after its creation. Funny it’s usually far left people who claim to be pro immigration - unless you’re a Jewish Holocaust survivor apparently

It doesn't put you as a terrorist sympathiser to see both sides at all, some people might choose to see it this way but it doesn't make it true I agree its normality for the children of Gaza 😞

Why were their homes bombed this time? Was it anything to do with Hamas & their supporters' planned. revolting, gleeful atrocities against teenagers at a peace festival, children, families babies and elderly peace activists on October 7th, do you think? That was cheered and celebrated by a great many of the adults around them in Gaza?

They are partly desensitized because they are taught by the adults around them that death, martyrdom and especially killing Jews is glorious.

And this has been the case for a very long time.