Have the events of the last couple of days changed your mind on the Israel/Gaza crisis?

[BaMamma]

Not only, but including, the macabre theatre with the coffins of the Bibas babies, Oded Lifshitz, and, as we now know, a currently anonymous Palestinian woman.

The locked coffins with no keys.

The antisemitic poster of Netanyahu as a blood sucking vampire.

The celebrations in Gaza, happy, joyful people surrounding those coffins., children dancing, parents smiling.

The 'mix-up' over Shiri Bibas body.

The discovery that the babies were murdered, not killed in an airstrike.

Does any of that change your mind about the rightness of your position on Israel and Palestine/Gaza?

Well said.

Israel - a country created to flee the worldwide anntisemitism following the Holocaust - are neighboured by nations of Jew hating terrorists. What are they supposed to do

my own children would be horrified to see a coffin of a child. Traumatised by it. These kids are desensitised to death. Their homes have been bombed. Their schools have been bonbed. Life as they know it is gone.

I'm not saying this isn't true also, but there is plenty of evidence and footage out there of the heavy indoctrination that many Gazan children are subjected to from an early age, relating to hating and wanting to kill all Jews.

Here's one example, but there's an absolute ton online:
https://x.com/LizaRosen0000/status/1870846537149890968

Not to mention the antisemitic s hoop text books UNWRA have given to them

If anyone wants to have a better undertaking of the country “Israel - the world’s most misunderstood nation” by Noa Tishby is a fantastic read and DOES touch on the problems with the Israeli government and discusses terrorism within their own country

Yes, and in the same way Israel and Judaism are not the same thing. You can find Israel’s behaviour towards Palestine abhorrent - doesn’t make you anti-Semitic.

And yet all Jewish people everywhere are being held responsible for all actions, past and present, of various Israeli governments. To the point that, on Oct 7th, for example, Hamas and its supporters deliberately chose to target, murder, torture, rape and brutalise the very citizens who were the least likely to support Netanyahu, some of whom had done everything they could to help Palestinian neighbours, and not only that, actually film the brutality and violence they were enacting, proudly, even going so far as to send footage to their victims' families on social media? With people all over the world celebrating this atrocity as "resistance"? And let's not forget that Hamas stated intent is to kill Jews.Not "Israelis". Jews.

Do you believe that Israel should be able to exist as a nation, btw? Are you one of those who claims it's totally not Jews but ust "Zionism" you have a problem with?

I don't have to guess how I would behave. I have a pretty good idea, based on the reactions of my paternal family to the shit visited upon them by some friendly fascists. They weren't Jews, they were another minority.

At least two family members were massacred. Maybe a third was, but we still don't know what happened to him (he was in his late teens). One was executed, another tortured. Many became refugees, losing their homes and virtually all their possessions; one died on the way out due directly to actions that probably constituted a war crime. Some lived under a brutal occupation, seeing dead bodies in the streets and random acts of violence.

And virtually everyone in that family ended up a kind, functional, decent adult. There were a couple of exceptions, my father was one, but i don't think even he would have encouraged music and dancing around the coffins of his enemies.

Pray tell me now how Israel are fighting for peace? Or a two state solution?

Also I as an “equally bad” person I don’t think that the IDF actually tried to avoid civilian deaths. I think it was policy to aim for maximum destruction regardless of civilian deaths. Otherwise I wouldn’t think bad of both sides.

Completely agree. Thank you for recognising that grotesque blood libel for what it was.

@anonhop wrote
So there needs to be a 2 state solution to achieve peace (which is what Israel are fighting for).

I fully agree that there needs to be a 2 state solution and as soon as possible.

But I think you'll find that is not what Israel is fighting for. Netanyahu has made it clear over the years that he is opposed to that. Of course he's opposed to it, the great majority of his supporters would never tolerate a Palestinian state.

Clearly that can't have been their policy or more civilians would have been killed. Its just a ridiculous assertion. Though far too many people have died far more would have died if Israel had had no regard for civilian deaths considering bow deeply embedded Hamas were in civilian infrastructure. If you look at the amount of destruction of buikdings then its obvious that steps were taken to minimise civilian casualties.

@mouthpipette you're mistaken on this. Netanyahu knows there has to be a 2 state solution & was abiding by that when 7th October happened. It's in Hamas' charter to wipe out Jews and Israel

Indeed, at the time when Gazans voted for Hamas, back in 2005, the charter didn't even pretend not to be antisemitic, it was full on 'Kill the Jews!' And they voted for that!!

I'm sorry, but comparisons to Glastonbury are a bit silly. Glastonbury is not held next to a population of refugees who were herded into an enclosed space and held under blockade, and bombed every few years. Nobody has ever been crushed to death by a bulldozer defending homes next to Glastonbury. The people living near to Glastonbury have not had their calories calculated and controlled to provide basic survival and no luxuries. Nor has anywhere near to Glastonbury ever had food, water, power, medical supplies restricted. It certainly was a terrible day on Oct 7th, but it obviously is not something that would happen unless the festival was very close to a place like Gaza.

@wordsworthundercover Israel are giving 3,500 calories of aid food per person to Gaza. About double what's needed factoring in children. It's Hamas who are starving their people to death by intercepting the food. And still the people support them.

I am afraid this is true and a troubling question.

The food entering Gaza was calorie counted and restricted before Oct 7th.

Why don't you start a thread and try to find out about that?

I don't know about the calorie counting, but it was certainly restricted by Hamas.

@BaMamma Yes, COGAT I think.
@dairydebris Would like to, but don't know if I have time to maintain my own thread. I worry about posters losing sight of the humanity of all children. The suffering of children is what has upset me most about this situation, and I wish nothing of this horror had touched any of them.

Netanyahu has made it no secret that he is opposed to a two state solution.

everyone knows that I am the one who for decades blocked the establishment of a Palestinian state that would endanger our existence.

www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahu-boasts-of-thwarting-the-establishment-of-a-palestinian-state-for-decades/amp/

I don’t know why you would pretend otherwise. Both Hamas and Netanyahu’s government are blocking any chance at peace. And now the US of course.

I think we all wish that.
Sometimes I have to force myself to put down the phone and go cuddle my own.
And never lose sight of how lucky I am.

Yes, that's a good thing to do. I find causing the suffering of children the absolute worst sin of humanity.

me too 😞

Yes Netanyahu needs to go before there is any chance of a two state solution